Hi Mike,

I feel like giving up (as in suicide), and was wondering if you had any scriptural advice about my plight. I’ve had a difficult life, starting in childhood with parents who didn’t love me. I was hated in junior and senior high school, teased and picked on frequently, beat up by a gang, and police, parents, and school administration witnessed all this and did nothing. In fact, my mom instructed me not to defend myself at school, advice which I foolishly followed, and so the bullying just got worse. All this has affected my psyche and now as an adult I still let people “bully” me mentally, emotionally, spiritually, verbally, etc. I’ve had broken relationships in general, failed marriage, failed at various jobs I’ve tried. I started a spiritual journey long ago with the Jehovah’s Witnesses cult. I eventually rejected their teachings, as something about them just didn’t feel right, and I tried to follow God in my own way and totally messed up my relationship with the Lord by my own lack of faith and attempt to legalistically be “perfect” in my own fleshly pursuit of the Lord. Sins that have plagued me my whole life (lust and laziness probably being the two biggest) still haunt me and I feel guilty about it. I’ve never really shared my faith much, as I find most don’t want to talk about the topic, so feel I’ve denied and betrayed Christ most of my life by being a cowardly closet Christian, but this partly goes back to childhood where I was trained “not to fight”. For some reason, most of my attempts to discuss religion and spirituality with people tend to get people angry and emotionally upset, so I always instinctively back off (trained in childhood not to fight with anybody about anything after all). This is, of course, even more pronounced since I’ve come to agree with many of the teachings on your site about salvation of all, lack of free will etc. When I tell people I believe all will be saved someday, even Hitler and Satan, people sure do get offended and think me strange indeed! Throughout all this, I feel hated and rejected by God, as I’ve felt the Lord’s “scourging, chastening, rebukes, flaming fire, and wrath”.
It’s a long story, but I perceive God has been very hard on me and has not only humbled me, but humiliated me with my experience with evil. Yeah, by faith, I know those whom God loves He “rebukes and chastens”, but it sure doesn’t feel like love when God hits me with flaming fire and wrath so much and so hard. It seems God doesn’t care a whit about letting the child molesters and rapists live like the devil and enjoy their sin, but if I so much as look at a pretty woman with a sexual thought, I get hit with flaming fire and wrath. I’m on a short leash and hate it.
Anyway, I could go on and on with my woes but I’ve probably already bored you enough. I’m sure I sound like a whiner. I know life is difficult for everybody, and we all experience pain and suffering and difficulties of various sorts. Mine are probably no worse than anyone else’s in its own way. But I’m not handling life very well and am losing the motivation to go on. I’m unemployed and don’t even know if I’ll get another job or be able to keep it with the attitude I have. I’m afraid I’ll get fired again.
Anyway, I digress again. Let me get to my basic point and questions: I’m sure it’s a cowardly thing to kill myself, but I just want to get life over with. I think very negatively. I figure there’s probably no way I can avoid the lake of fire, so why not just kill myself and get it over with. My next thought will be being resurrected and put through the “lake of fire” experience (whatever that is… I’m still hazy on the details but believe it is a loving, corrective, spiritual fire directly administered by God). I want to see Jesus personally and work on my character directly with His perfected spirit beings instead of continuing to plod through life, making mistakes, hurting myself and others. One question I have is: do all suicides go to the lake of fire or could some suicides possibly be in the first resurrection? Killing yourself is sin, but no worse than any other sin we all do. If you’ve committed one sin, it’s the same as committing all sins afterall. If our sins kept us from the first resurrection, then nobody would be in the first resurrection, including you. What level of overcoming is necessary to avoid the lake of fire? I just don’t get it. I’d rather avoid the lake of fire if I can, but just don’t think that’s possible at this point. Maybe I’ve committed that mysterious “unpardonable sin” that can’t be forgiven in this age or the next, and that’s why I can’t get back up after my seven times fall. I’ve made a complete mess of my life and would rather not live anymore. I don’t enjoy life. It’s hard, boring, lonely, and I still struggle with spiritual concepts like lack of free will. It’s hard to believe sometimes that a loving God is causing all the sin and evil in the world, but it’s the explanation that mostly makes the most sense to me, so I mostly believe it but still struggle with the concept and probably always will. If it’s true we have no free will or thoughts, then I guess I should say God in His sovereignty is using these doubts to keep pushing me to keep struggling and enduring till the end of my natural life instead of committing suicide.
I guess my faith is weak and I’m still motivated by fear. Perfect love has not yet cast out all fear. But sometimes I seriously consider suicide, especially those times when I’m having a really hard time with life and see no point in going on. If everyone gets saved in the end, why not just kill myself and let God do whatever He has to do to fix me after death? Most people are going to the lake of fire anyway. At least the end result will be good, as everybody gets saved. However God does it, I believe in the end I’ll get saved and restored to the Father, and have a wonderful eternal existence full of love with Jesus and the angels and other resurrected humans, etc. What’s so wrong with forcing the issue and ending it now, and (more than likely) going to the lake of fire? Sure it’ll be hard, but at least the end result will be good. I’m in the majority camp, an average, normal person that just can’t overcome without a lot of direct help from God. I want to get to that lake of fire and see God directly and start working with God directly with my issues. Nothing else in life seems a worthwhile pursuit except overcoming. Since I feel it is impossible for me to overcome in this life (or more accurately I believe God in His sovereign will has decreed my fate is to be the lake of fire), why not just kill myself and let’s get on with this lake of fire thing? In a way, I’m just killing time in the flesh until I die, since I feel it is unavoidable at this point that I can avoid the lake of fire. I deserve the lake of fire. I’m not a good leader or hard worker and probably wouldn’t be much use to Jesus in the first resurrection anyway. I don’t think I would do a good job assisting Christ in administering the lake of fire. I believe Jesus called me to the first resurrection and even chose me for it, but I’ve failed and am going to the lake of fire anyway. After all, Revelation says those who follow Christ are “called, chosen, and faithful”. I may be called and chosen but I’m not very faithful, as that implies a certain mastery over your sins, which I don’t have and probably never will in the flesh. I’m stuck at the faithful stage. And I’m just lacking motivation more and more each day to go on. It’s building to the point that I think I might kill myself someday. I’m sure you’ll advise against that, but really, if I’m destined for the lake of fire anyway, why not just kill myself and get on with it? Can you give reasons why, scripturally, this is such a terrible choice? You teach that all get saved anyway, so this is not necessarily a terrible choice and the end result will still be good anyway, so my thinking is why not just kill myself and get on with it?
I’m sure you’ll try to encourage me. I’ll thank you ahead of time for your efforts, though it probably won’t get through As I told you, I think quite negatively. I’m not sure why God, in His sovereignty, has given me such a negative thinking mind, but He has. And that’s just one more thing, in a long list of things, that I have to deal with on a daily basis.

Thanks in advance for your response,
D____

Hi D____,

Thank you for writing to me about your suicidal thoughts and asking if I can give you a reason not to commit suicide.
I certainly can show you that you will be raised to regret that deed. All you need do is realize that you cannot outsmart God to know that suicide is not an option to end the suffering we are all destined to experience when God decrees that suffering.
It is obvious, from this e- mail that you have read much on iswasandwillbe. com, and you have seen what the scriptures actually teach concerning the total sovereignty of God and the ultimate salvation of all of mankind. But it is equally obvious that you have not yet come to see that what is happening in your life at this very moment is just as much the fiery work of God as what happens in the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not easier. It is the exact same “one event” which is common to all of mankind.

You actually say:

Let me get to my basic point and questions: I’m sure it’s a cowardly thing to kill myself but I just want to get life over with. I think very negatively. I figure there’s probably no way I can avoid the lake of fire, so why not just kill myself and get it over with. My next thought will be being resurrected and put through the “lake of fire” experience (whatever that is…I’m still hazy on the details but believe it is a loving, corrective, spiritual fire directly administered by God). I want to see Jesus personally and work on my character directly with His perfected spirit beings instead of continuing to plod through life, making mistakes, hurting myself and others. One question I have is: do all suicides go to the lake of fire or could some suicides possibly be in the first resurrection? Killing yourself is sin, but no worse than any other sin we all do. If you’ve committed one sin, it’s the same as committing all sins after all. If our sins kept us from the first resurrection, then nobody would be in the first resurrection, including you. What level of overcoming is necessary to avoid the lake of fire?

Who do you think is in control of the fiery events now, at this time and in this life? You know it is Christ, who has already been “given all power in heaven and in earth”. It will be the exact same Christ in the lake of fire, and you will be in the exact same state of mind, still thinking you can, as you say in this e- mail, “force the issue” with Christ. You and I cannot force the issue with God. All who commit suicide will continue to want to commit suicide when they are resurrected, and “death will flee from you” then just as it does now (Rev 9:6).

Rev 9:6  And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

We cannot manipulate God and force Him to do anything, and your concept of the lake of fire, which you admit you “are hazy on”, is entirely wrong, because Christ said that His Words would never pass away.

Mat 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

That includes Rev 9:6. “Never pass away” in the Greek is actually ‘not for the aion pass away.” As long as the eons are not consummated, the words of Christ will be applicable to all who have not yet finished living by those words. The lake of fire is called “aionian judgment,” and “the consummation of the aions (eons).”
In Old Testament type, the fire of the lake of fire began for Joseph’s brothers when Joseph was taken out of prison and placed on the throne of all Egypt. It was at that point that there was a famine in the land, and his brothers were forced to come and bow down at his feet even as they were being “tormented day and night in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb”.

Gen 42:21  And they said one to another, We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the anguish of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress come upon us.
Gen 42:22  And Reuben answered them, saying, Spake I not unto you, saying, Do not sin against the child; and ye would not hear? therefore, behold, also his blood is required.
Gen 42:23  And they knew not that Joseph understood them; for he spake unto them by an interpreter.
Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That is what a suicide victim has to look forward to. It is far better to realize here and now, that God is working our trials and our torment for our good. It is far better to get this over with in this life and just get with His program of living a life of failure until it eventuates in Christ in us overcoming all that is in this world. All overcomers must first come to realize that they are total failures. That’s right, all men are first total and complete failures before they can possibly become overcomers. Look at the apostle Paul, Peter, King David and all the patriarchs and all the kings and even all the prophets. They were all “men of like passions as we are.”

Act 14:15  And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We [ Paul and Barnabas] also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:
Jas 5:17  Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Joseph’s brothers typify those who deny Christ in this life. A person who commits suicide is denying Christ, because Christ tells us we can do all things through Him, and the person who commits suicide does not believe those words.

Php 4:13  I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

You ask if “some suicides could possibly be in the first resurrection.” No, it is not possible for a person who takes it upon himself to try to short cut God’s fiery trials by means of suicide to be in that “blessed and holy first resurrection” to rule the kingdoms of this world and to rule over all nations in the lake of fire. That is a promise that is reserved only for those who the spirit calls “overcomers.”

Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Christ’s words and works forbid murder, and suicide is murder. God has not yet given you the faith to see that what He is telling us is that He can and will take away your suicidal thoughts if that is what He has determined to do. I cannot tell you how much you must overcome to be in the first resurrection, but I certainly can tell you that you must “endure to the end”, and that does not mean to commit suicide. You keep saying over and over that you “just want to get life over with.” Well, if that is your goal, then you certainly do not want to commit suicide, because that will only backfire on you, and you will come up in the great white throne judgment with those same suicidal thoughts with that battle still before you. You cannot “mock God”. We will all reap what we sow.
What you need to do is to stop listening to that lying evil spirit which tells you that you cannot think positively. That is a lie, and the sooner you realize that, the sooner you will quit thinking that you cannot overcome. You need to read Psa 107, and ask God to give you the grace to sacrifice your life to him “as a living sacrifice… of thanksgiving”, instead of the disgruntled spirit which is the automatic fruit of believing a lie. Your life now is what you believe it is.

Pro 23:6  Eat thou not the bread of [ him that hath] an evil eye, neither desire thou his dainty meats:
Pro 23:7  For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart [ is] not with thee.
Pro 23:8  The morsel [ which] thou hast eaten shalt thou vomit up, and lose thy sweet words.
Psa 107:22  And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.

What we “eat and drink” is what we live and believe. “His works” are “all things” according to Eph 1:11. You need to be thankful for the understanding you have been granted. What does it matter that the world rejects you? “Be thankful with rejoicing” because that is exactly what we are to expect. Do not “eat” the lies of demons or believe their false destructive doctrines, such as ‘You will never overcome your flesh… you might as well end it all now.’ If you fall for that lie while telling yourself that you really “just want to get life over with,” the last thing in the world you want to do is to commit suicide, because it is the very sins you commit now that will plague you in the lake of fire.

Gal 6:7  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Don’t be deceived by the lying spirit which is telling you that death is a way out of suffering. That is a lie! Gal 6:7 is the Truth. You will reap what you sow both now and later. It is the same for all men of all ages:

Ecc 9:2  All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

So Read Psa 107, and ask God to help you to be grateful that it is given to you to suffer with Him. Repeat Php 4:13 to yourself all day every day, as you beg God to give you the faith to believe Him and be living those words. Get out of yourself and get into God’s Word, and get into being an example and a light to this world around you.

Psa 107:23  They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters;
Psa 107:24  These see the works of the LORD, and his wonders in the deep.
Psa 107:25  For he commandeth, and raiseth the stormy wind, which lifteth up the waves thereof.
Psa 107:26  They mount up to the heaven, they go down again to the depths: their soul is melted because of trouble.
Psa 107:27  They reel to and fro, and stagger like a drunken man, and are at their wits’ end.
Psa 107:28  Then they cry unto the LORD in their trouble, and he bringeth them out of their distresses.
Psa 107:29  He maketh the storm a calm, so that the waves thereof are still.
Psa 107:30  Then are they glad because they be quiet; so he bringeth them unto their desired haven.
Psa 107:31  Oh that [ men] would praise the LORD [ for] his goodness, and [ for] his wonderful works to the children of men!

You and I are “the deep” in which God performs His “wonderful works”, and it is those “wonderful works” which “bring us to our wits’ end.”

Php 4:13  I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

I will comment on a few more of your statements in this e- mail. You say:

I tried to follow God in my own way and totally messed up my relationship with the Lord by my own lack of faith and attempt to legalistically be “perfect” in my own fleshly pursuit of the Lord. Sins that have plagued me my whole life (lust and laziness probably being the two biggest) still haunt me and I feel guilty about it.

It is just as you say in this e- mail; your troubles are common to all men. I was a slave to my own lusts long after I was 40. That was about the time my lusts began to really dominate my life. I too, came to my wits’ end, and while I cannot say that I ever seriously contemplated suicide, I can say with both you and Job, that I did seriously want my life to end. These fiery trials are a necessary part of being prepared to rule over those who are going to be enduring the very same trials, so we need to realize that this is not unique to us:

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

I’ve never really shared my faith much, as I find most don’t want to talk about the topic, so feel I’ve denied and betrayed Christ most of my life by being a cowardly closet Christian, but this partly goes back to childhood where I was trained “not to fight”. For some reason, most of my attempts to discuss religion and spirituality with people tend to get people angry and emotionally upset, so I always instinctively back off (trained in childhood not to fight with anybody about anything after all). This is, of course, even more pronounced since I’ve come to agree with many of the teachings on your site about salvation of all, lack of free will, etc… When I tell people I believe all will be saved someday, even Hitler and Satan, people sure do get offended and think me strange indeed! Throughout all this, I feel hated and rejected by God, as I’ve felt the Lord’s “scourging, chastening, rebukes, flaming fire, and wrath”.

Quit blaming your father or your parents for what God did with you and with them. This is His work, not our parents. Praise Him for His wonderful works which bring us to our wits’ end, and then He will deliver you. Refuse to do so, and He will turn up the heat, and you will “reap what you sow”. We all “feel the Lord’s scourging chastening rebukes, flaming fire and wrath.” This is common to all men. It may vary, but it is still common.

1Co 10:13  There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [ is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [ it].

It’s a long story, but I perceive God has been very hard on me and has not only humbled me, but humiliated me, with my experience with evil. Yeah, by faith, I know those whom God loves He “rebukes and chastens”, but it sure doesn’t feel like love when God hits me with flaming fire and wrath so much and so hard. It seems God doesn’t care a whit about letting the child molesters and rapists live like the devil and enjoy their sin, but if I so much as look at a pretty woman with a sexual thought, I get hit with flaming fire and wrath. I’m on a short leash and hate it.

There is a reason why God lets murders and child molesters go and yet He comes down on you and me. Yes, it doesn’t seem like love while any parent is punishing his own son. Here is why that is:

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7  If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

I just don’t get it. I’d rather avoid the lake of fire if I can, but just don’t think that’s possible at this point. Maybe I’ve committed that mysterious “unpardonable sin” that can’t be forgiven in this age or the next, and that’s why I can’t get back up after my seven times fall. I’ve made a complete mess of my life and would rather not live anymore. I don’t enjoy life. It’s hard, boring, lonely, and I still struggle with spiritual concepts like lack of free will. It’s hard to believe sometimes that a loving God is causing all the sin and evil in the world, but it’s the explanation that mostly makes the most sense to me, so I mostly believe it but still struggle with the concept and probably always will.

That is another lie you are believing. You will not always struggle with the concept of God “working all things after the counsel of His own will”, and you will know fully well that “it is not of him that wills…” because one day you will believe the Truth that “you shall KNOW the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free” from your doubts and from believing all these lying spirits which now dominate your mind.

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Joh 8:32  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I may be called and chosen, but I’m not very faithful, as that implies a certain mastery over your sins, which I don’t have and probably never will in the flesh. I’m stuck at the faithful stage. And I’m just lacking motivation more and more each day to go on. It’s building to the point that I think I might kill myself someday. I’m sure you’ll advise against that, but really, if I’m destined for the lake of fire anyway, why not just kill myself and get on with it? Can you give reasons why, scripturally, this is such a terrible choice? You teach that all get saved anyway, so this is not necessarily a terrible choice and the end result will still be good anyway, so my thinking is why not just kill myself and get on with it?

There are exceptions to the rule, and so we have young ‘Timothies’ even in our own fellowship, but they are not the rule. You and I are far more common. We seem to literally waste our lives until one day for no apparent reason we are called forth by God, out of the prisons of Egypt where we have for so many years served Egypt’s captain of the guard and captain of the prison, both the symbols of our flesh and our carnal mind, and we are placed on the throne of Egypt and made the king of all of Egypt and given all power. It doesn’t happen on our schedule, but it is as sure as the rising of the sun.

I’m sure you’ll try to encourage me. I’ll thank you ahead of time for your efforts, though it probably won’t get through. As I told you, I think quite negatively. I’m not sure why God, in His sovereignty, has given me such a negative thinking mind, but He has. And that’s just one more thing, in a long list of things, that I have to deal with on a daily basis.

Well, you are welcome. The one thing you are right about it that it is God who is working all of this, but if you think He is doing so just to see you suffer, then you will suffer until you see otherwise. That is how God works. As we think, we are so judged out of our own mouths. If I were you, I would start thanking God for His wonderful works to the children of men. That is what will get you where you want to go and get you there the quickest. Reckon yourself as already dead, and then you can live for God.

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [ in the likeness] of [ his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [ him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You asked me why you should not commit suicide. I have shown you that you would be a fool to do so, but as you so correctly put it, it is already written in His book, and I pray that He has written therein that your days of slavery to sin are soon coming to an end, not through suicide, but through reckoning yourself as dead to sin.

Your brother in Christ,
Mike