Mike,

I have been discussing the matter of free will with a religious friend of mine. I told her that without discord we could never understand harmony! “But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” I then quoted these scriptures.

Heb 5:14 For the creature (in the Greek transcripts this actually says creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him (God) who hath subjected the same in hope.
Rom 8:20 But it is spirit in man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.
Job 32:8 (ESV) However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
1Co 15:44 (NKJV) Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwells in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:10 (GW) Don’t you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I’m telling you doesn’t come from me. The Father, who lives in me, does what he wants. [ no free will there!]

It’s just cause and effect “For whom the LORD loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.
I sent this to her and received in return only the brief statement “God is only in us once we make the choice to receive Him.” I am finding out firsthand what you have been saying that only God can open a person’s eyes to truth. She is of the popular belief that Adam and Eve ‘fell’ from perfection. Should I continue to ‘reason’ with her, or just let it go?

Thanks,
D____

Good morning D____,
You quoted Rom 8:20 to her.

Rom 8:20 For the creature (in the Greek transcripts this actually says creation) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him (God) who hath subjected the same in hope.

I remember how that verse hit me when I first had it pointed out in the context in which you present it here. I thought, ‘Hey, I’ve read that many times before, but where in the world did that come from?’ It was like I had never seen that verse before.
 
I was conversing with a brother recently, and during the course of our conversation he mentioned the impact that Jer 18:4 had on him.

Jer 18:4  And the vessel that he made of clay [ Adam] was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

“The Potter” does not make mistakes. He deliberately marred the first vessel by making it of clay. All clay vessels are marred. The only unmarred vessel is “the Lord from heaven.”

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body [ marred]; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural [ marred] body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam [ marred vessel, made of clay] was made a living soul [ marred]; the last Adam [ was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural [ marred]; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy [ marred]: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As is the earthy [ marred], such are they also that are earthy [ marred]: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy [ marred], we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [ marred] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption [ marred] inherit incorruption.

In these verses Paul equates ‘natural, earthy, and flesh and blood’ with ‘corruption.’ When Christ pronounced everything He had created as “very good,” He was not saying that it was finished or perfected.

Gen 1:31  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

When we say that this verse proves that God created everything perfect and finished and then it all came tumbling down in a so- called “fall of man”, such a statement ignores the fact that “everything that He had made” includes the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that old serpent the devil. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a good tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It worked perfectly to accomplish what it was created and designed to accomplish. When Adam and Eve ate of its fruit it made them like God “to know good and evil”. The serpent was a perfect serpent. He seduced Eve, and through her Adam, to eat of the tree of which they had been told not to eat.

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

It is not the lying serpent who says “The man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.” That is not a lie, that is the Truth. Those are the Words of God. The first step we take towards becoming “as one of us” is to come to “know good and evil.” Knowing the difference between good and evil does not make God evil. But of course God does inform us that He is the one who creates evil:

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Your friend here, and for that matter the whole world, understands God’s words here to mean ‘sometimes’ at the end of this verse. ‘ I… create evil… sometimes.’ But when they do that they are adding to themselves “the plagues which are in this book.”

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

It is best to just believe that “I the Lord do all these things,” and leave the ‘sometimes’ off. Your friend had asked you before why God didn’t just start with a rod of iron. Well, we all ask that question, and the natural man does not like God’s ‘what business of yours is that?’ answer.

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [ it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Again, the whole world adds the word ‘sometimes’ to the end of verse 21.
In the face of all of these verses your friend says:

God is only in us once we make the choice to receive him.

To which Christ answers:

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here is what the concordance reveals about the Greek word translated ‘draw’ in this verse:

G1670
ελκυω  / ελκω
helkuo  /  helko
Total KJV Occurrences: 8
draw, 4
Joh_6:44, Joh_12:32, Jas_2:6 (2)
drew, 4
Joh_21:10-11 (2), Act_16:19, Act_21:30

The Greek word is helkuo, and a quick look at all of those entries listed above will reveal that free will is the last thing involved with this word ‘helkuo’. For example:

Jas 2:6  But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw [ helkuo] you before the judgment seats?

What? Do any of us will to have lawsuits brought against us? I think not. We are all dragged into court when we are sued by another person.

Joh 21:10  Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
Joh 21:11  Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

Do fish in a net will themselves out of the water? No, they have to be dragged out of the water.

Act 16:19  And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
Act 16:20  And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,
Act 16:21  And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.
Act 16:22  And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat [ them].
Act 16:23  And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:

Did Paul and Silas will to be beaten by a mob? No, they did not, and we do not choose Christ until we too, have been dragged to do so. Only then do we ‘choose’ to obey God; only after God demonstrates his chastening love for us, do we then love Him.

Joh 15:16  (a) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you…
1Jn 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.

But your friend does not believe that God is in the business of blinding people, and so she cannot understand the reason Christ spoke in parables. She actually cannot see or hear these words of our Lord simply because she has not been given “eyes that see or ears that hear.”

Mat 13:9  Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:10  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Christ spoke in parables to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah, which prophesied their blindness and deafness, and so it is to this day for the multitudes who cannot to this very day see this reason for the parables.
So you are talking to a deaf and blind woman, and that by her own words when she says that we have free will. ‘To her it is not given to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God.’ Don’t be discouraged. Always be ready to answer, but let this lady consider what you have given her, and then answer her when she asks you about any subject.

I hope this helps.
Your brother in Christ,
Mike