The Father Ever Speak To The Disciples?

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Hi M____,

What was spoken to Adam in the Garden of Eden, God speaking to Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Moses and all the elders at Sinai and throughout the Old Testament, was a physical voice and form. Christ wrestled with Jacob and ate with Abraham. Just as Christ appeared in a physical body to His disciples after his resurrection, a physical voice and form was needed for those in the Old Testament.

Exo 24:9  Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10  And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11  And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exo 20:18  And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
Exo 20:19  And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

What the disciples saw and heard was a vision. The answer to your question is:

Joh 5:37  And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Christ’s point in this instance is not that His word has no place in them; His point is that He has been with and has known the Father and they, on the other hand, have never, at any time, had any such relationship. Your argument robs Christ’s Words of their very force. Christ is contrasting His Witness with that of John and the Old Testament law-bound scribes and Pharisees. You are in effect telling me that the Old Testament saints and John the Baptist knew God just as much and as well as Christ knew Him and thus rob Christ’s words of their very power and force.

Look at the preceding verse:

Joh 5:31  If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32  There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33  Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34  But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
Joh 5:35  He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

Joh 5:36  But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37  And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Do you really contend with me that “Nor seen His shape…” means simply ‘My word hath no place in you?’ If that is the case, then these words are absolutely meaningless:

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

It is not my place to convince you that “no one has ever seen the invisible God… or heard his voice at any time.” As always, all I can do is quote His written word and let His spirit do the rest.

There was no Moses or Elijah or literal voice on the mount of transfiguration. It was all a vision.

Mat 17:9  And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

The only people present for this “vision” were Christ, Peter, James and John. The only person to hear the voice at Christ’s baptism was Christ Himself. John “saw” the dove but does not claim to have heard the voice. It certainly was not heard by any others since Christ had not yet begun His ministry and had not yet chosen the twelve:

Mat 3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17  And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Joh 1:32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
Joh 1:33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 1:34  And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

John did not see the Father’s form or hear His voice at any time. All the speaking being done from heaven, while Christ was in the flesh, was done through dreams and visions, and the truth remains:

Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

God the Father is not a literal dove. This too, was a vision. Spirit has no problem being manifested in physical form, just as Christ appeared to His disciples in a locked room after His resurrection.

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Joh 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.

I hope this helps you to see the truth of God’s Word: “Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape,” and that you do not succumb to a false spirit which wants to make Yahweh into God the Father, who was not only seen and heard thoughout the Old Testament, but ate and drank with Abraham, Moses, the elders of Israel, Samson’s parents, and others.

Exo 24:9  Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10  And they saw the God of Israel: and [there was] under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in [his] clearness.
Exo 24:11  And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

Within days of this event, Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire unto “the God of Israel” with whom they “did eat and drink,” and they were slain for their carelessness and presumptuousness. They certainly had not seen God the Father. “Neither [had they] heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.” They had met with and heard the voice of and seen the shape of Yahweh, Christ, the God of the Old Testament.

1Pe 1:10  Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11  Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

That “spirit of Christ” in all the prophets, including Moses, Abraham, King David and all the other prophets, was the Yahweh of the Old Testament. “No man has seen God.”

Your brother in Christ,
Mike

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