Waters As Chastening Judgment

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Hi D____,

Thank you for your questions. And let your wife know that I do not consider anyone’s questions to be silly. Anyone who is sincere in their efforts to know the Truth will be given my undivided attention when I am answering their question.

I am the one who is blessed by your gratitude for the DVDs. I pray that you are in some way edified by them.You ask:

If we can discover what waters signify in scripture, then we can begin to understand what the “drying up” or “cutting off” and “dividing” of those waters means.

What is the meaning of “waters?”

Rev 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Eze 27:3  And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

2Sa 22:17  He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;
2Sa 22:18  He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me.

Psa 29:3  The voice of the LORD [is] upon the waters: the God of glory thundereth: the LORD [is] upon many waters.

Isa 17:13  The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

So wherever we see the word ‘waters’, we need to realize that we are spiritually dealing with many “peoples,” or “the nations.”

But in what context? What is the state of mind of these “many waters… peoples… the nations? The answer:

2Sa 22:17  He sent from above, he took me; he drew me out of many waters;
2Sa 22:18  He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them that hated me: for they were too strong for me.

So “many waters” are our “strong enemy” and “them that hate me.” That part is easy enough to see when it comes to the stories of Moses leading Israel out of Egypt and Joshua leading Israel across the Jordan:

Exo 14:21  And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land  and the waters were divided.
Exo 14:22  And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

The Egyptians, Israel’s enemies, were coming to destroy and enslave Israel. They were “many waters.. a wall unto them on their right hand and on their left.”

Is that what the waters of the Jordan also signify?

Jos 3:10  And Joshua said, Hereby [by the parting of the ‘waters’ of Jordan] ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.
Jos 3:11  Behold, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth passeth over before you into Jordan.

The twelve rocks were taken up out of the Jordan while the priests were still standing on dry ground in the Jordan:

Jos 4:1  And it came to pass, when all the people were clean passed over Jordan, that the LORD spake unto Joshua, saying,
Jos 4:2  Take you twelve men out of the people, out of every tribe a man,
Jos 4:3  And command ye them, saying, Take you hence out of the midst of Jordan, out of the place where the priests’ feet stood firm, twelve stones, and ye shall carry them over with you, and leave them in the lodging place, where ye shall lodge this night.

It is important to know that our reward of being part of the foundation of Israel is received after we have “endured to the end,” after we have “clean passed over Jordan” and not before. All that we possess of that promise at this time is in “earnest,” in down-payment form only, and not in the “redemption of the purchased possession.”

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Is our ‘redemption a thing of the past, or is it an ongoing thing which will have its end?:

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Salvation is an ongoing, lifelong process which entails “dying daily” until the day we die.
Your second question was:

The answer is that we are not judged at the resurrection if we are judged now.

1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves [the time is come – now], we should not be judged [later at the resurrection at the white throne judgment].
1Co 11:32  But when we are judged [now], we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world [to the white throne judgment].

This is a very revealing fact for many. The truth is that death must precede judgment for all:

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Judgment cannot come until “after” we die. And so we are told:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God : and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The answer to Peter’s rhetorical question is that “they that obey not the gospel of God” will be raised at the white throne judgment to be chastened of the Lord in a symbolic ‘lake of fire.’

Those in Christ are told in no uncertain terms that they are to account themselves to be now dead and buried with Christ in His death:

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

But to what end?

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 7, the very next chapter, is not a green light for sin to reign in our bodies:

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

We are still in “bodies of sinful flesh.” Flesh itself misses the mark of the spiritual body conformed to the image of Christ. So flesh itself is sin:

Psa 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

How and when are we “shapen in iniquity and in sin?” Deny it though we may, the answer is:

Jer 18:4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

“The vessel that was made of clay” Adam and all “in Adam,” before he ever drew his first breath , was “marred… [Hebrew: shâchath – ruined] in the Potter’s hand;”  “Shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin;” all for the purpose of giving man an evil experience to humble him:

Ecc 1:13  And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Now look at how this verse ought to be translated:

Ecc 1:13 (CLV) I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

When and if we are brought to see how utterly worthless we are in this flesh, we are then “judging ourselves” in this flesh. But how can that be accomplished?

1Co 15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Paul did not “walk in the flesh” and neither do we. All of the hopeless failure expressed in Romans 7 is speaking specifically of those who “walk in the flesh.” Verse 5 is the basis for all the despair Paul is expressing in this chapter:

Rom 7:5  For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

“When we were in the flesh the motions of sin… did work in our members…” This really is a desperate position in which to live, and it is the position in which we live much of our lives. I can personally vouch for this just as Paul does:

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

It is a “body of this death” because it was “in the hand of the Potter… shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin.”

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness:  I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things .

It is “all of God,” whether we “judge ourselves” now or are to “be judged” at the lake of fire. Nevertheless we are exhorted to “judge ourselves that we be not judged” simply because God does not take us into His confidence to the extent that we are guaranteed that we can relax and rest assured that we are a shoe-in for that “blessed and holy… first resurrection.” We are all exhorted to “endure to the end,” and “let him that thinketh that he standeth take heed lest he fall.” “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” Paul does not leave this question unanswered:

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

You ask:

The answer is that “when we are judged”, we are chastened by God:

1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

But while all judgment entails chastening, it does not necessarily follow that all chastening produces judgment. Here is what Isaiah tells us about God’s judgments:

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

God’s wrath is against “all unrighteousness.” It is especially strong against the unrighteousness of His elect who hold the truth and yet take another man’s wife and then kill that man.

2Sa 12:10  Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

As hard as it was on David, David repented and received his chastening. There are those, like King Saul, who are smitten and yet do not receive judgment:

Jer 2:30  In vain have I smitten your children; they received no correction: your own sword hath devoured your prophets, like a destroying lion.

So all judgment includes chastening, but all chastening does not necessarily bring about judgment or the learning of righteousness. Either way, it is all being worked “according to the counsel of His own will.”

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

I hope this answers both of your questions.


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