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Mike,

Nice to hear from you. I just think this guy made a valid point concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah. I know about spiritual Israel. I know being in the body of Christ places me and you in the commonwealth of Israel, but just because that is true does not eliminate the distinct meanings of words. God is going to reconcile men in their own order, you know that better than me. There is going to be a 1000 year kingdom, with the nation of Israel as the focal point of God’s kingdom on earth. Now in Heb 8:8-12 Paul [ I think he wrote Hebrews] is quoting Jer 31:31-34, then in Heb 8:13 he says the old covenant is aging and will soon disappear. I don’t think the new covenant is strictly in effect. We touched on this before-“And, so, all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written––There shall have come out of Zion the Deliverer,––He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob”

 I see the Deliverer being the body of Christ with the rod of iron manifesting and setting up the Kingdom of God on earth. At that point the body of Christ will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; Jacob being the reunited 12 tribes (Judah + Israel). Paul seems to take great pains to make things separate. While we are at it, Mike, something just came to me. Look at Heb 9:15 And because of this He is the negotiator of a new Covenant, in order that, since a life has been given in atonement for the offences committed under the first Covenant, those who have been called may receive the eternal inheritance which has been promised to them. I just looked at that and something is peeking out at me. The eternal inheritance is the aionian inheritance. That seems to only be talking about the body of Christ members. That is a important distinction.

Mike your insight about a true Jew being one who is circumcised in the heart and who and what makes up spiritual Israel is right on the money. But that does not eliminate the distinct meaning of terms like Judah, Israel, Jacob and the nation of Israel and how all the nations of the world will be ruled by that nation with Jesus Christ and David sitting on a throne. You cannot start redefining terms and in essence say they have no meaning anymore because Israel is now spiritual, and can only be viewed in that context. Until all are subject under Jesus Christ and are in him, these distinctions have meaning. Until these groups are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, that is. That’s how I view it.
God bless you brother.
L____

Hi L____,
I can see that you are struggling with the veracity of Paul’s assertion:

2Co 6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [ them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separat e, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [ thing]; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Like me before you, you cannot accept the fact that God has but one Israel, one Jacob, one Judah and one Jerusalem. He does not have a physical and a spiritual Jew or Israelite. He has but one seed. The promises above are only for those in Christ. All who are not in Christ are the son of the bondwoman and will not be made heir with the son of the freewoman as you and I both, in our flesh, would have it.

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [ that was born] after the Spirit, even so [ it is] now.
Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

The whole point of this 4th chapter of Galatians, the whole point of Rom 9, is that the bondwoman and her son are “cast out” and will “not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” Yet you and me too, at one time, insisted:

I see the Deliverer being the body of Christ with the rod of iron manifesting and setting up the Kingdom of God on earth. At that point the body of Christ will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; Jacob being the reunited 12 tribes (Judah + Israel).”

You say, “At that point the body of Christ will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”
No, Christ said “My words will never pass away,” so ‘at that point’ “the son of the bondwoman will not be made heir with” God’s elect who are ‘at that point’ “the commonwealth of Israel,” as I pointed out in Eph 2:

Eph 2:16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Paul was a much maligned ‘replacement theologian.’ “The son of the bondwoman shall NOT be made heir with the son of the free woman.

Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Jerusalem that now is, IS the son of the bondwoman:

Gal 4:25  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26  But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

So “Jerusalem which now is” is no more Jerusalem than the children of the flesh are of Abraham or a Jew which is one outwardly is a Jew.

Rom 9:7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

We can say ‘they are not counted for the seed, but they will still reign during the millennium,’ but that will not change the truth that “the son of the bondwoman will not be made heir with the son of the freewoman.”

Rulership over the nations is not for people with a physical pedigree; it is only given to the “overcomers” in Christ. Gal 3 makes it abundantly clear that Abraham is not the true “father of the faithful” at all, but Christ is the true ‘Abraham’ and the true “father of the faithful.”

Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Abraham foresaw Christ’s day and rejoiced in it, but it was for him still “afar off,” and “he ministered not to himself but to us.” In our flesh, we have a hard time seeing that little world ‘not.’

1Pe 1:12  Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Rom 9:8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [ is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [ is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [ and] not in the letter; whose praise [ is] not of men, but of God.
Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

You mentioned Heb 9:15:

Heb 9:15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [ that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 

All men are now called to repentance:

Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Speaking specifically of Abraham and all of the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets, we are told:

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The “better thing” [ is] for us… that they without us should not be made perfect.” It does not say ‘We without them will not be made perfect,’ because the “better thing for us,” will indeed be given us 1000 years prior to them. We are not given “power over the nations” just so we can set up as rulers those “who say they are Jews but are not,” It is the overcomers who are the true Jew, true house of Jacob, true Israelite and true circumcision, who will “rule the nations with a rod of iron.”

As you say:

Paul seems to take great pains to make things separate.”

That is so true. When speaking of the flesh, he makes that clear with statements like these:

Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 9:3  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8  That is,They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

You go on to say:

Mike your insight about a true Jew being one who is circumcised in the heart and who and what makes up spiritual Israel is right on the money. But that does not eliminate the distinct meaning of terms like Judah, Israel, Jacob and the nation of Israel and how all the nations of the world will be ruled by that nation with Jesus Christ and David sitting on a throne. You cannot start redefining terms and in essence say they have no meaning anymore because Israel is now spiritual, and can only be viewed in that context.

It is not my intention to make you my enemy, but if telling you the truth makes you my enemy, then that is the work of the Lord. You are in essence telling me that when the words “Judah, Israel, Jacob, and the nation of Israel,” are spiritual words, that is “in essence say[ ing] they have no meaning anymore because Israel is now spiritual,” you are simply telling me [ and God] just how little you value the things of the spirit.

It is not me who says “the children of the flesh are not counted for the seed of Abraham.” It is not I who have established the truth that “He is not a Jew which is one outwardly.” Did I say either of those statements? No, those are the words of the holy spirit. All I did was to quote and believe them. Do you believe that “the children of the flesh are not the children of Abraham?” If you do not, then you are “making the Word of God of none effect,” and it is you who are doing exactly what you say I am doing:

You cannot start redefining terms and in essence say they have no meaning anymore…

I will close with the verses which fulfill all the promises that all of physical Israel will be saved and will fulfill the prophecies of Eze 37 and Rom 11, which state that “all Israel will be saved.”

Eze 16:55  When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

It is at the white throne judgment that Sodom and Samaria will be “returned to their former estate.” The white throne judgment is what Paul refers to as “the fullness of the Gentiles.”

Accepting the spiritual as the real in no way “in essence say they have no meaning.” Accepting the spiritual as the real, makes this verse to be true:

Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Which Israel is this?

Rom 11:14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation [ them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them [ be] the reconciling of the world, what [ shall] the receiving [ of them be], but life from the dead?

The “reconciling of the world, and the life from the dead” are both fulfilled in the white throne judgment and “the fulness of the Gentiles” demonstrated by the saving of Sodom and Samaria in Eze 16.

I hope this helps you to see that the only words which have any real lasting meaning are the spiritual words of our Lord which “will never pass away.”

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Christ’s very first sermon after His baptism by John, informed His listening audience that the gospel was going to the Gentiles, and it almost got Him killed:

Luk 4:29  And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.

Again when Christ informed these same Jews that “the flesh profits nothing… many who walked with Him went back and no longer walked with Him.” It may have been all but the twelve:

Joh 6:66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

We all struggle with letting go of the flesh. Nevertheless, the Truth remains, ‘the flesh profits nothing’.

I hope you can see that making ‘Israel,’ or any other word of God, spiritual, is the only way that the word has any true meaning. It is “the flesh” which is what ‘in essence’ “profits nothing.”
Your brother in Christ,
Mike