Mike,

I have been meditating for a long time on the wrath of God. If I remember correctly, you say we all experience God’s wrath and the nonelect experience it in the Lake of Fire. I believe we all experience the same thing, but the difference may be in the knowing. There are so many verses about knowing God and to know that He is the only God. In Joh 8, Jesus talks about a process of continuing in the truth that after you have done this then you will be set free. It is when you really know the truth “indeed” that you are able to be set free.

God is love and His chastening grace or judgment on people will be viewed as His wrath until they are given the eyes to see that He is not angry; He is teaching you to become a Son of God. Until you know that what you think is wrath is actually Him loving you so that you come into submission to Him, you will be suffering the wrath of God whether in this age or the age to come until you know that the truth of it is that it is not wrath; it is actually His chastening grace that gets rid of all of your carnality so that you can be in Him and He in you.

D____

Hi D____,
Thank you for your thoughts.

I think you are coming to see the truth of this matter. I will take the time to point to a few scriptures for your consideration. Please let me know what you think of these verses:

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

If we tell ourselves that Rom 1 is for that bad godless man somewhere ‘over there’, then there is nothing in Romans one for you or me. We are telling ourselves that we don’t really have to “live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.”

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

There it is, “we all… were by nature children of wrath [ against all our ungodliness] even as others” who will be judged later.

The “not appointed to wrath” of 1Th 5:9 is being spoken concerning those who are appointed to salvation.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Now the simple question is, who is appointed to salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ? The scriptures tell us clearly who receives salvation by Christ:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You say we all experience the same thing, and the scriptures agree with you on that statement.

Ecc 9:2 All [ things come] alike to all: [ there is] one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [ is] the good, so [ is] the sinner; [ and] he that sweareth, as [ he] that feareth an oath.

So then, whether we are elect, those who are awake and children of the day, or whether  we “sleep in the night” and are “children of the night… each in his own order… will all be made alive… and live together with Him.”

Paul is speaking here of mankind as a whole, being given salvation as opposed to continued wrath. The way to life is through death:

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Mat 10:39  He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

It is through blindness that we see:

Joh 9:39  And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40  And [ some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41  Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

It is through sickness that we achieve health:

Mat 9:12  But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

So the truth in what you are saying is that when we come to recognize that “we all are [ indeed] children of wrath even as others,” at that point we were “in times past… children of wrath.”

As he increases, we decrease:

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

As we decrease, our rebellions decrease and our ungodliness decreases, and God’s wrath against all unrighteousness and ungodliness in us decreases.

Though Christ NEVER sinned, even Christ faced God’s wrath against the sinful flesh that Christ emptied Himself to become for our sakes:

Php 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; (ASV)
Mat 19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. [ not even Christ”s]
Isa 54:8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Are we like Christ?

1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

So then, we too will experience God’s wrath “even as others.” But God’s wrath is His judgment, and the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God:

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

As we quoted above:

Ecc 9:2 All [ things come] alike to all: [ there is] one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as [ is] the good, so [ is] the sinner; [ and] he that sweareth, as [ he] that feareth an oath.

All that God does is for our good, even his wrath against our blaspheming of His name.

1Ti 1:13  Who [ the apostle Paul] was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

But here is what the scriptures say of all such as have determined that they can somehow just skip that part of “every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God…  [ and that part of] the sayings of the prophecy of this book:”

Jer 25:28  And it shall be, if they refuse to take the cup [ of His wrath] at thine hand to drink, then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ye shall certainly drink.

In closing I will repeat the admonition found at the beginning and at the end of the book of Revelation:

Rev 1:3  Blessed [ is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

What “things written therein?” Should this verse read ‘Except for the plagues?’ No, it should read as it reads and as it is repeated:

Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed [ is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

“The time is at hand… I come quickly.” This is not a book which is only about events affecting only those who happen to be standing on this earth when God turns the kingdoms of this world over to “the Lord and His Christ.” This is a book which is being lived, has been being lived, and will continue to be lived, by every man who has ever been on the face of this earth, “each in his own order.”

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  (a) But every man in his own order:

Are we not “the temple of God?”

1Co 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [ that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Are we not all “lively stones” in that house of God?

1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Now notice one of “the sayings of the prophecy of this book:”

Rev 15:8  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

And why would God say that about His elect?

1Co 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Do we think that verse 16 is about us, and verse 17 is about someone else? No, we do “live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God and we do keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book.” The apostle Paul was God’s elect “before the world began,” and even as he was “breathing out slaughter against God’s elect”. He and we all must live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God… and keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

And “the sayings of the prophecy of this book” end with this solemn warning:

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [ from] the things which are written in this book.

I hope this has helped you to see that God’s wrath really is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men,” and that “we were all by nature children of wrath even as others… every man in his own order.”

Your brother in Christ,
Mike