How Can Love Exist if We Don’t Have The Free Will to Choose to Love?

Hello,

Can you please explain to me how love can exist if we have no free will? If God’s sovereignty means that we don’t choose, He is just loving Himself. But when we have a choice, our love for Him “means” something. Otherwise is the meaning and purpose of it all just an “exercise” He is doing with Himself?

I have read some of the scriptures you give on “free will”, but did a search and could find nothing that connected it with love. To me, the two are inseparable. Do you understand my thinking? Yes, I do want it to be scripturally based, but there are some things that are just obvious. If we are a mechanical organic robot that God has built and “programmed”, what pleasure or satisfaction does He get out of that?

God bless,
S____

Hi S____,

Thank you for taking the time to make your statement and ask your question. I will deal with each in order.

Your first statement is:

“If God’s sovereignty means that we don’t choose, He is just loving Himself. But when we have a choice, our love for Him “means” something.”

You will search high and low, and you will never find a single sentence on the iswasandwillbe.com website where I state that “we don’t choose”. I go to great lengths to demonstrate that we do choose. I have pointed out many times that Joshua tells Israel to “choose you this day whom you will serve”, and Joseph tells his ten brothers that they sold him into Egypt:

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Gen 45:4 And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I am Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5 Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hither: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6 For these two years hath the famine been in the land: and yet there are five years, in the which there shall neither be earing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7 And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.

The beast who sits on the throne of our hearts declares that he is God, and he will decide whether to accept the sacrifice of Christ. He loves those two sections of scripture, because by themselves they seem to say that mankind has a will that is free from God’s prewritten, predestinated will for each and every person who has ever been born. But that same beast within us hates the very next point that is made in both of these cases:

Jos 24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Jos 24:17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:
Jos 24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.
Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Joshua knew the truth that Paul knew:

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Does any of this sound like Paul could just freely choose to “perform which is good”? How foolish of us to believe such a lie!

Joseph twice stated that his brothers had chosen to sell him into Egypt, but look at what he then tells them:

Gen 45:8 So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

‘You sold me into Egypt… don’t be angry with yourselves that you sold me here because it really wasn’t you at all that sold me here, it was really God who orchestrated the whole thing while you thought you had free will to do what you did’.

Does any of that sound like Joseph’s brothers could have somehow just, of their own free will, have decided to “perform that which is good” and not sell their brother into Egypt? What an absurd and unbiblical false doctrine! It is God who is “working all things after the counsel of His own will”. How is it even possible that we fail to see these things other than this reason:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Isa 44:18 They have not known nor understood: for he [God] hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Paul told us that he could not do the good he wanted to do because of the law of sin working in his members. There is [but] one lawgiver” so when it comes to our sins, the Bible teaches, from Genesis to Revelation, that God’s clay vessel creation is a “marred” creation by design, and therefore when we sin, “it is no more I that do it but it is sin [which from “the Potter’s hand”] dwells in me” via the “law of sin and death” that works “in me, that is in my flesh”. (Rom 7:17-23)

Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay [Adam] was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made [Hebrew qual, passive, is making] it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

So the physical six days of creation, followed by a physical ceasing from His physical work in reality is nothing more than a type and shadow of the spiritual ‘six days’ of our own sinful works, followed by the spiritual sabbath or seventh day when we “enter into” Christ and give up on our own works and the foolish idea that we can somehow contribute to our own salvation by our own free will to choose to serve Christ. If there is anything to such a doctrine, then Romans 7 is a lie, and of course, Romans 7 is the Truth, and the doctrine of mankind being given a free will is the lie. Mankind has a will, and mankind make millions of choices, but they are one and all made under the sovereign will of God who has predestined that this physical life simply will demonstrate the weak, marred, lascivious composition of the marred vessels of clay.

This is what is taking place, and this is not plan B. It is plan A and has been plan A from the beginning:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Flesh and blood were never intended to inherit the kingdom of God. ‘The vessel He made of clay was marred in the hand of the Potter”, and He is in the process of making a new heavenly man of “all that are in Adam”.

We will indeed choose to obey God, but when we do this will be why:

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Pro 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Your next statement was:

“I have read some of the scriptures you give on “free will”, but did a search and could find nothing that connected it with love. To me, the two are inseparable.”

If you are questioning what the scriptures teach, then I have certainly shown you that God has not given mankind a will that is free from His own plan and purpose. Rather God has deliberately made man “subject to vanity, not willingly but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope”.

Rom 8:20 For the creature [Adam and “all in Adam”] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

We are specifically told that we did not willingly choose to be “made subject to vanity”, and in the very next chapter we are specifically told that our salvation is by the predestinated will of God and “not of him that wills”:

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

“Not willingly… not of him that wills [and] predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will [not ours]”:

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

It is not the purpose of this web site to make anyone who does not hold the scriptures as the last word on what is Truth, to see the scriptures in that light. So when you say: “to me the two [free will and love] are inseparable”, you are “leaning to your own understanding” and placing what is “obvious” to you above what the scriptures clearly teach which, from Genesis to Revelation, is that we are : “…predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:”

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

We simply cannot say: “but there are some things that are just obvious.” and at the same time say: “I do want it to be scripturally based.” A virgin birth is not “obvious”. Believing the scriptures requires faith in things that are not seen and certainly are not “obvious”.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen [it was not obvious], and yet have believed.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I was reared believing in the false doctrine of free will, and to this day I am amazed that I could not see these Truths which are found throughout the scriptures: “Not willingly; not of him that wills; predestinated; all my days were written in your book before there were any of them; not thine own understanding; not of yourselves” etc., etc.

Just look at these words of truth:

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them. (ASV)

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

How is it possible to miss all of that? How can anyone read those verses and say straight-faced that the Bible teaches us that man has a will that is free from the predestined purpose God has already written in His book? That He is not working all things after the counsel of His own will? That our salvation really is “of him that willeth”? That I chose to be wicked, God did not make me wicked? That mankind can direct his own steps?

This is the truth of the scriptures:

Pro 20:24 Man’s goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

You ask:

“Do you understand my thinking? Yes, I do want it to be scripturally based, but there are some things that are just obvious. If we are a mechanical organic robot that God has built and “programmed”, what pleasure or satisfaction does He get out of that?”

I can certainly say, yes, I do understand your thinking. It was my own way of thinking for many long decades. But that is exactly what it is – it is “your way of thinking” and it is our own way of thinking which the scriptures warn us to avoid:

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

So when you say, just as I did for many years, “But there are some things that are just obvious”, we are guilty of “leaning to our own understanding” and “thinking above what is written”, which we are again warned never to do:

1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I did transfer to myself and to Apollos because of you, that in us ye may learn not to think above that which hath been written, that ye may not be puffed up one for one against the other (YLT)

Nowhere in scripture is it written that God gave mankind a will that is free of His sovereign will for all things He has created. On the other hand we are specifically told that our salvation is ‘not of him that wills, but of God that shows mercy or hardens hearts’, and we are told that this is done before we are even born.

These words of scripture certainly are not “just obvious”, but they are “that which has been written” and they are “Thy Word”, and they are therefor “the Truth”:

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

Those words accord with these words:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Those words do not accord with the false doctrine of God giving mankind a “free will” even if it does not seem “just obvious” to us. This is the truth of “that which is written”, and it is right here is this very same chapter in very clear and plain words:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

There it is! He makes a very clear statement backed up with the examples of Jacob and Esau and the example of Pharaoh whose heart God hardened for the purpose of fulfilling what God had written in Pharaoh’s book before Pharaoh was even born:

I want you to know that I, too, struggled mightily for over two long years after I was introduced to the idea of God having complete sovereignty over all of His creation. I simply could not believe that my every thought and action was “from the Lord” (Pro 16:1). If you had asked me twenty years ago when I was 47 years old if I believed that God was sovereign I would have said, ‘Of course God is sovereign. After all He is God.” But if you had asked me if I had a free will I would have said everything you say in this e-mail. To me it was “obvious” that I had a free will. Just like you I thought that my love was not love at all if God were the origin of that love. After all I make free choices every day, and no one told me what choices I had to make. From my perspective it was I who had chosen to believe that Christ died for my sins. It was by my own faith that I had made the decision to accept that sacrifice. Then my own son, after reading a book about ‘fractals’, without even a single verse of scripture, demonstrated scientifically that everything that looks so very chaotic, be it a tremendous tsunami, or a hurricane, or a huge earthquake, it is every atom involved acting in strict compliance with the laws God has placed in motion to carry out such chaotic devastation.

So it is with the law of sin in our members. Yes indeed, we do choose to sin, but we do so because God, the “one lawgiver”, has put that law of sin and death within our members, and we do everything we do because of the work of that law in our members (Rom 7:17- 23).

In the same way, the law of the spirit comes into our lives via the holy spirit which the Father gave to His Son, and through His Fathers spirit, also called the spirit of life, we through “Christ in [us], are given to love our heavenly Father, and demonstrate that love by obeying His commandments.

So here is the true love which God is capable of placing within us, and while it may not be obvious to our old man who wants to take credit for what God has done and is doing, this is how we know that we love our brother and our Creator in a way that really does “mean something”:

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

And this is how we are able to love our brothers and love God, and it has nothing to do with having a will that is free from the laws of God:

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Here is who that “inward man” is:

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

I pray this helps you to see that just as God is capable of raising up children to Abraham “of these stones”, He is equally capable of causing us to truly love and appreciate His love for all of His creatures.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Your brother in our heavenly Father who is working all things after the counsel of His own will,

Mike