Mike,

I just ran across your site on the web. I too, am opposed to the pre-tribulation teachings and am the author of a couple of books on the subject.  I also agree with you that hell is not eternal.  But I must say that I was totally taken aback by your conclusions.

Eg. Scripture teaches Hell as destruction, not payment for sin and then earning salvation. So one would because they either reject Christ, or not having heard the gospel would pay according to their judgment for their sin, and then cease to exist or be destroyed in hell or the lake of fire.

So moving on to Thumos vs Orge wrath and your teaching.  Sorry, but in my opinion you miss the entire meaning of the gospel and being in Christ or in Him. We “were” children of wrath Orge, before we came to Messiah; but we are no longer meant for that wrath. Jesus paid the price for all that we put under His blood. Otherwise there was no need for His death if we were going to pay for our own unrighteousness; no need at all; and He says that He came for the purpose of laying down His life for His sheep.

What am I missing here?

Words are powerful, use them well. Not mine, not yours,  but only God’s truth matters.

J____

Hi J____,

Thank you for taking the time to communicate, but your e-mail reveals that you have read very little of what is taught on iswasandwillbe.com.

Nowhere on that site will you find anything remotely close to teaching:

Eg. Scripture teaches Hell as destruction, not payment for sin and then earning salvation. So one would because they either reject Christ, or not having heard the gospel would pay according to their judgment for their sin, and then cease to exist or be destroyed in hell or the lake of fire.”

You ask:

What am I missing here?”

What you are missing is this:

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Christ did not come to save just some. He was sent by His Father “that the world through Him might be saved”, and that is what we are taught throughout scripture. I could cite literally hundreds of verses, but this one is about as direct as they come:

1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But what you are really missing is the Biblical meaning of just who is “the Christ” who was prophesied to be rejected of His own people and the world, and to die for their sins. Here is what you, and this whole world, are missing:

Act 22:7  And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 22:8  And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Those are Christ words, and they accord with what He taught while He was in a body of flesh and blood when He said this:

Mat 25:40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

It is not I who said “I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you persecute” and it was not I who said, “Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these my brothers you have done it unto me”. Those are Christ’s words concerning those in whom He dwells.

Now, what is the purpose for being the very body of Jesus of Nazareth? Is it simply to accept His sacrifice for our sins so we can go to heaven, or is there a function of salvation being performed by those who are persecuted for Christ’s sake to the extent that when we are being persecuted it really is the same as crucifying Christ?

As you said: “Words are powerful, use them well. Not mine, not yours,  but only God’s truth matters.” So these are Christ’s own words, which I will use to show you what you are missing:

Joh 20:21  Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

So what did Christ’s Father send Him to accomplish? We just read the answer to that question:

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

How does Christ accomplish this:

Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

The apostle John know what is our part in the work of “the Christ” because he tells us plainly:

1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

“As He is, so are we in this world… that we may have boldness in the day of judgment”.  What then is judgment? This is what ‘judgment’ is:

1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [to a later, white throne judgment] with the world.

This accords with the rest of the doctrines of the New Testament concerning those who are called, chosen and loved of the Lord:

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

That verse is the definition of the word ‘fiery” in this verse:

1Pe 4:11  If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Suffering as a Christian

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
1Pe 4:14  If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
1Pe 4:15  But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters.
1Pe 4:16  Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? [They will appear at the great white throne judgment to]:

1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [to the white throne chastening, judgment] with the world.

I did not write any of these verses, and yet here again we are told “[Ye] are partakers of Christ’s sufferings”. So what are we to make of the verses which tell us:

Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Isa 53:5  But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

What we are to do is to stop denying verses like these and begin believing and living by and in them:

Rom 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2  And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. [Be not conformed to a doctrine that tells you Christ did everything for you and there is nothing He is doing in you and through you for His body’s sake]

1Co 15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

“I am crucified with Christ [and] I die daily… nevertheless I live [because I am] presenting [my] body as a living sacrifice…” for whom? Are we to do all of this just for ourselves and our salvation? No, and this is what you are missing:

Col 1:24  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

That is what “as He is so are we in this world” means. That is what “As my Father has sent me, so send I you” means. We are to fill up what is lacking of the affliction of the Christ of Nazareth, because He has sent us exactly as His Father sent Him.

I hope all of these verses, which are all in complete accord, demonstrate for you that the grace of God chastens us to forsake ungodliness and worldly lusts:

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12  Teaching [Greek: paideuo – chastens] us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Grace is not a ‘get out of jail free’ card. Grace chastens us to forsake ungodliness and worldly lusts. It brings judgment and fiery trials upon us because our heavenly Father loves us, and whom He loves He chastens and judges with His grace.

This concluding verse is the fruit of the judgment that is now on the house of God, as well as the great white throne judgment which comes upon all the rest of mankind after the thousand years and the short season which follows the thousand years:

Isa 26:9  With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

I hope you are given to see that: “Words are powerful, use them well. Not mine, not yours,  but only God’s truth matters.”

Your brother who is filling up in his flesh what is behind of he afflictions of the Christ for His body’s sake which is the Church.

Mike