Hi Mike,

When do you consider your conversion had taken place? Your baptism in Worldwide?

How do you view your worldwide journey? Do you consider that the time of God calling you?

I do mine even though I see many doctrinal problems of that church, past or present.

My baptism took place in ’68 there under David Antion. I can readily see “new truth” but have never been able to ‘prove’ to myself that I have God’s Spirit. I left WWCOG in ’95, not accepting orthodoxy, then left United Church of God and formed my own fellowship still observing Sabbath, unclean meats, etc., but have changed many doctrines. I agree with your view on all saved and hell. Perhaps at some time I would like to discuss with you where I think you are in error about the nature of God. I agree with you that Christ is a created being.

I was actually raised Old order Amish until called to Worldwide.

Thanks,

M____

p. s. Your first reply to me was very helpful.

Hi M____,

It is good to hear from you again.

No, my ‘deadly wound,’ what you call my ‘conversion,’ took place in a Pentecostal church when I was in the 7th grade. I experienced several, what seemed like huge, catastrophes in my life at that time, and I gave my life to the Lord. God was already “dragging” me to him at that young age. I was baptized as a Pentecostal, and I was re- baptized when I went to Ambassador College. In both cases, I merely got wet. The ‘man of sin,’ the ‘beast within’ (Ecc 3:18) that we all are, had not yet been revealed to me and like the “carnal… babes in Christ” Corinthians, I too, was “yet carnal.”

Look carefully at and consider well these verses of scripture. The content of these verses is true of all who are in an incorporated church. The true ‘body of Christ’ is a spiritual body; it is not an “I am of Paul” (Protestant), or “I am of Apollos” (Catholic), incorporated for tax purposes organization with a statement of beliefs and by- laws of incorporation. There is no ‘statement of beliefs’ that includes the entirety of God’s Word. It is therefore “taking away from the words of the prophecy of this book.” Now look carefully at these verses of scripture:

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

These Corinthian brothers in Christ were “sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [ not chosen] to be saints!” Not only were they ‘called to be saints,’ they were also casting out demons and healing the sick and doing many wonderful works in Christ’s name. Nevertheless, look at what Paul says of Christians who are “sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints”:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

In four verses Paul tells these Corinthians who were “sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints” and who “came behind in no gift (1Co 1:7), that they “are yet carnal” and “enmity against God…” If you haven’t yet done so, be sure to read Strong Delusion. It is the law of Moses, in its varying degrees of honor, in the various churches, that is used to accomplish this “strong delusion.” This is true even though we are plainly told that “the law is not for a righteous man.” There is a law which is for a righteous man. It was not given at Sinai. That covenant “was added” only “until the times of reformation.” At any “time of reformation, “there is a change also of the law” not just “the priesthood” which administers that law.

It is truly hard to grasp how anyone can read Mat 5-7, and fail to see what a reformer Christ was! Hate your enemy is now love your enemy, eye for an eye is now return good for evil, swear by my name is now swear not at all, put away your wife because “you find no delight in her,” is now “except for fornication”. This is indeed a change:

Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

This does not say that ‘the priesthood being changed, there is also a change of the priesthood…’ as so many want it to read, so they can cling to “the law which is not for a righteous man but for the lawless.”

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Do you believe and do things “that are contrary to the sound doctrine of Mat 5-7? If you do, then the law of Moses is for you. If on the other hand, you see that Moses “was added” to the law that Noah and Abraham were under, if you can see that the law under discussion didn’t even exist until “four hundred and thirty years after” the covenant God made with Abraham; if you can see that…

Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

… does not agree with:

Lev 20:25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.

Then you will understand what was meant by:

Deu 18:16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb [ Horeb is Sinai] in the day of the assembly [ the giving of the law of Moses. Adding it to the already existing law of the spirit], saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
Deu 18:17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee [ A reformer], and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
Deu 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Now here are “my words which He shall speak” concerning keeping the weekly sabbath:

Mat 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungered, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mat 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mat 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungered, and they that were with him;
Mat 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mat 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mat 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mat 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

Christ here admits that He “and those that were with him” had done “that which is not lawful.” Moses had clearly taught that one should prepare for the sabbath. Christ “and those that were with Him”, had completely ignored that law, and instead of fasting they “began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.” Christ here admits that He and those with Him “profaned the sabbath.” These are the words of Christ about Himself and those that were with Him. And for what purpose does Christ tell us that he did this?

It was done to demonstrate that “in this [ new covenant] place is one greater than the temple… [ and] the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Now I submit to you that if Christ’s point in saying that “the Son of Man is Lord also of the sabbath” was to teach us to keep the weekly sabbath, then He is certainly sending us conflicting words; admitting that He had profaned the sabbath as the priests, and as “David and those that were with him [ He had done ] that which was not lawful for Him to do.” Christ was not a descendant of Aaron. Neither were his disciples. Christ was not teaching weekly sabbath observance. He was teaching that He is our rest. He was teaching that we are to enter into HIM, not one day in seven with the other six for ourselves. He was demonstrating that we are to be in Him who is “greater than the temple.”

“If Joshua had given them rest would he not have spoken of another day?” The answer to that question is yes, he would have spoken of ANOTHER day if he had given them rest. That “other day” is the day we are in, in Christ. We no longer give God one day in seven. Instead we:

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice [24 hours a day 7 days a week], holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable [ Gk.- divine] service.

If we insist on keeping the weekly sabbath, then we are required to also keep the holy days, the new moons and “the whole law.”

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Paul tells us the exact same thing and calls the law “the elements of the world.”

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child [ Gk.-nepios– an infant], differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children [“under the schoolmaster… before faith came”], were in bondage under the elements of the world:

You will never “know that you have God’s spirit” until you learn that “the words that I [ Christ – not Moses] speak unto you are spirit.”

When you do become faithful to the “but I say unto you” word that [ Christ] spoke,” then you will have no doubt that you have God’s spirit.” That is because only then will you have the “words that are spirit.” This is all in contrast to the law the “carnal commandment” that God gave Moses for a nation that “was not a righteous [ nation] but was lawless and disobedient.” It was a fading, growing old law for the lawless and disobedient. Leave it behind and go one to a law that is impossible to keep without “Christ in you.” A law that requires so much more of you than to merely love your neighbor. When you can admit that the beast is within, that it was put there by the Potter Himself, and that it must be dethroned from the throne where Christ belongs, in God’s temple whose temple you are; when you are, with Christ in you, capable of loving your enemy, you will have no doubt that you have God’s spirit.

I know that you know this already, but ‘new truth’ is new only to us. Like the law to which Moses ” was added,” the truth and the true law of the spirit is older than the universe, and it is unchanging.

In Christ “every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you.” This is especially true of false doctrines and the enemies of Christ.

Num 14:9 Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land [ all that is in us that withstands the words of Christ]; for they are bread for us: their defence is departed from them, and the LORD is with us: fear them not.

When you become faithful to the words of Christ, your confidence in Him will give you the courage to cast out all the Canaanites and Philistines that are now occupying the land. When that happens you will be able to prove to yourself that you have God’s word which is His spirit.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Words express thoughts. When you have the thoughts of God, you have His mind and His spirit.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

There is the definition of ‘life eternal.’ It is “to know God and Christ.”

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

That is it. Christ gives us “an understanding.” “My sheep know My voice, and a stranger [ with a strange doctrine] they will not follow.”

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

I consider my World Wide Church OF God experience to be nothing more than preparation for the calling that all of the elect have been given. It is not to save this world now. It is to “torment them that dwell upon the earth.” The ‘earth’ is a symbol that John borrowed from the Old Testament. This entire book is “SIGNified.” It isn’t ‘partly signified;’ it is entirely “signified.“

Here is the strength and force of this symbol ‘the earth:’

Jer 22:1 Thus saith the LORD; Go down to the house of the king of Judah, and speak there this word,
Jer 22:2 And say, Hear the word of the LORD, O king of Judah, that sittest upon the throne of David, thou, and thy servants, and thy people that enter in by these gates;

Now look at what God calls “the house of the king of Judah… and thy people that enter in by these gates.”

Jer 22:29 O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.

Go back to the book of Revelation, and everywhere you see the word ‘earth,’ interpret it as ‘the backslidden people of God, and you will get a lot more truth out of that book than you ever did before. God’s people have been pushed up out of the sea of mankind. they are just slightly above the sea. They are certainly not in heaven. Only the elect are “seated with Him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” Only the elect who are to rule all nations with a rod of iron are “caught up unto God and to His throne”

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child [ those “in Christ”], who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The rebellious woman that brought forth the manchild flees into the wilderness where she is nourished of God, just as rebellious Israel who brought forth Christ went into the wilderness where she was nourished of God. Both are said to have been taken there “on eagle’s wings.” Nevertheless, it is right here “in the wilderness” that we find this same woman in chapters 17 and 18, and just as Israel in the wilderness, they actually slay God’s two witnesses just as they would have slain Caleb and Joshua had not God stepped in to save them.

Num 14:10 But all the congregation bade stone them with stones. And the glory of the LORD appeared in the tabernacle of the congregation before all the children of Israel.

Here is the New Testament repeat of this same event:

Rev 11:7 And when they [ God’s witnesses] shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

A prophet cannot perish outside of Jerusalem.

Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem

Once again, can you receive “the words of that prophet?”

“Whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

Christ said:

Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Our ‘dead bodies lie “in the streets of that great city wherein our Lord was crucified. A prophet cannot die outside Jerusalem. We will not have covered the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come.

Our calling is to “torment them that dwell upon the earth.” It is them that “think that they do God service” that will kill us. It is the church of God to whom we are sent.

Rev 1:11 … What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia…
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [ nd the bright and morning star.

“These things” includes the events of Rev. 11. “That great city wherein our Lord was crucified” is the great city of chapters 17-18. It is all of the incorporated churches of Christianity. “Come out of her my people.”

If you haven’t yet, be sure to read Will God’s Strong Delusion Deceive You?

Don’t ‘come out of Babylon” and bring Babylon with you. You did well not to follow Joseph Takach back into orthodoxy. But if you remain under the law, you are no better than the slave that orthodoxy is.

I hope this is as helpful to you as the first letter.

Mike