F____ wrote: Hi Mike,  In your paper entitled “What Part of this Book is your Part” page3. The paragraph : “The children of night are “drunken… they are Not of the day…. Let us not sleep as do others… but let us who are of the day be sober…”and yet both are God’s elect???? That is what we are being asked to believe.  And you have been “cornered by God’s Word” if you cannot see that the children of darkness and of the night and the children of light and of the day are both God’s elect??? Talk about “vain words!” The Scripture you are talking about is I Thess. 5 about the ones of the day and night.  Mike, are you saying that if we cannot see that both were God’s Elect, then “we had been cornered by God?”   I really cannot see that.

Hi F____,
Thank you for asking about this. The fact that you cannot see the night and the day as the same thing is very good indeed, simply because they are not the same.
The word you have in quotation marks above are those of a detractor I was quoting. That certainly is not what I see Paul teaching in 1Th 5. What I am pointing out is that if you think verse nine is associated with verse eight instead of verse ten, as this detractor believes, then it is this detractor himself who is “cornered by God” because verse ten says that “whether we wake or sleep we shall live together with Him.” I think we all agree that salvation is not reserved only for God’s elect.
Since the exact verse you are referring to is not included, I will just take this opportunity to summarize 1Th 4 and 5 so as to make the point that Paul is making in verse 9 of chapter 5.
Here is that verse. This is the verse my detractor used as an excuse to separate himself from my fellowship.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Taking this verse by itself, it certainly looks like this verse is saying that God’s elect never have and never will experience God’s wrath. There it is: “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
But in doing that we might as well also turn to the gospel of Mark and start teaching the doctrine of eternal hell fire:

Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

There it is. Someone somewhere has to be cast into Gehenna fire.
I think you know better than that. I have no doubt that you have come to see that the only way we can arrive at Truth is to consider “the sum of God’s Word.”

Psa 119:160  The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. (NASB and many other translations)

Peter understood the importance of never establishing doctrine upon a single portion of God’s Word:

2Pe 1:20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private [ the Greek is ‘it’s own] interpretation.

Or as Rotherham’s has it:
 Of this, first, taking note- that no prophecy of scripture becometh self- solving; (REV)
So if we read 1Th 5:9 by itself and ignore all the rest of scripture on the subject of God’s wrath, we are going to miss out on “the sum of God’s Word.” For example we will miss out on these straight- forward statements about those on whom God’s wrath is poured out:  

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Does not that verse tell us that we have all been the children of God’s wrath “in times past?” Does it not say that we have all been “even as others” who will receive of “the seven last plagues?” Why are they called “last plagues ” if others had not received of them first “even as others.”
I have never said that the children of the day and the children of the night are one and the same. I am glad that you can see that that is not the case.
What I did say was that verses 9 and ten are both talking about the same thing, and that if you cannot see that then you do not understand who the ‘us’ of verse nine is. The ‘us’ of verse nine is the same as the ‘us’ of verse ten.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for ‘us,’ that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

“We are not appointed to wrath… whether we wake or sleep?” I don’t think this is talking about the seven last plagues “wrath of God.” Verse ten is talking about the loss of salvation as the wrath of God. Verse ten is talking about death as God’s wrath against all mankind, an informs us that this is not the case… “Whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him… [ because] he is the savior of all men. specially those who believe.”

1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

and again:

1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So the ‘us’ of verse nine should be associated with the us of verse ten, but it should not be associated with the ‘us’ of verse eight:

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Read those verses carefully. Paul is going to great lengths to separate the children of darkness from the children of light, the children of night from the children of the day, those who sleep in the night from those who watch and are sober. He concludes this exercise of extreme discrimination with this admonition:

1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Then apparently without explanation he says:

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The reason Paul doesn’t bother to explain that verses 4-8 are separating the elect from the rest of mankind, is because he has already spent most of chapter four telling these Thessalonians that “the dead in Christ” would be raised and return to life at the first resurrection. Chapter four says nothing of the fate of those loved one who have died but who are not “in Christ:”

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now remember, Paul did not write his epistles with chapters and verses. So let’s just add the first eight verses of Chapter 5 to verses 13-18 of chapter four:

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night .
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye , brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

There it is. Chapter four deals with the “dead in Christ.” Paul assures these Thessalonians that they need not worry about those their loved ones who are “asleep in Christ.” He assures them that “the dead in Christ” will rise up at Christ’s return before those who are still alive, and together they will ascend to be with Christ. Then he tells them to “comfort one another with these words.”
But realizing that there are many more who have loved ones who have died who are not in Christ, Paul goes to great lengths in the first eight verses of chapter five to explain that God’s elect are not the same as others “who are of the night… [ and] of darkness.” He goes so far as to say:

1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

But Paul has not forgotten the love which God’s elect should be possessing for the masses who are not God’s elect in this age. Paul’s message here is the same as it is in Heb 11 where he tells us:

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them [ the unbelievers] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

We need to begin to pay greater attention to verses like these. This is what I was getting at in Dallas. You and I will never be complete until we have rescued Satan himself from the lake of fire. It is “through their unbelief that we believe,” just as it is “through our offenses that Christ was delivered up and it is through our justification that Christ was raised up:”

Rom 4:25  Who was delivered for [ Greek – dia – through] our offences, and was raised again for [ Greek – dia – through] our justification.
Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

So without saying so, Paul, just as he does in Rom 11, goes straight from “us who are of the day” to the unbelievers who are the masses who are “asleep in the night” and this is what he says of them:

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us [ all of mankind, “whether we wake or sleep”] to wrath [ of eternal death], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Which is just another way of saying “If the firstfruit [ elect] be holy, the lump is holy also.”
So when we read verses like this:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

We know that this verse is not in contradiction with 1Th 5:9. And when we read this verse:

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

and this verse:

Jer 49:12  For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup [ of the wrath of God] have assuredly drunken; and art thou [ God’s elect “even as others”] he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it.

and this verse:

Rev 15:8  And the temple [“ye are the temple”] was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues [ of God’s wrath] of the seven angels were fulfilled.

and this verse:

Isa 54:8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

We realize that none of these verses which all have an application to God’s elect, contradict 1Th 5:9-10:

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us [ all mankind, “whether we wake or sleep”] to wrath [ of eternal death], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

If verse nine is not talking about all mankind then why does it say “God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation?” Is salvation only for God’s elect? If Paul were telling these Thessalonians that only God’s elect are not appointed to wrath, then he would have followed that with something which does not apply to the rest of mankind. Something like “ruling with a rod of iron,” or being the channel “through whose mercy they would obtain mercy.” But that is not Paul’s point in verses nine and ten. He has spent much time dealing with the dead in Christ. He has spent the first eight verses of chapter 5 showing that there are many who are not dead in Christ. And in verse 9-11 he deals with the vast majority of our loved ones who have died not knowing Christ. In these three verses he assures these Thessalonians that “if the firstfruit [ elect] is holy, the lump [ unbelievers] are holy also:

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us [ even those who die not knowing Christ] to wrath [ of eternal death], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

“Whether we wake or sleep,” whether we are elect or not “we should live together with Him.” And how does Paul conclude this section speaking of all of mankind who are in unbelief? He ends it with the same words he used in speaking of “the dead in Christ;” back in chapter 4.

1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. [ concerning unbelievers who have died not knowing Christ]
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words. [ concerning the dead in Christ]

What you thought I was saying about 1 Thess. 5:9 was actually a quote from a detractor. I am sorry for not making that much clearer.
I hope this helps you to see what God’s Word teaches concerning God’s wrath. And I hope you can see that I, too, do not believe that the elect and the many called but not chosen, are the same.
Mike

Hi Mike,
 
I just misunderstood your punctuation marks. I do understand and did all along, but it was confusing to me.
Thanks again so much. Yes, you may post this because someone else could have misunderstood.  Maybe just me.
Love you all,
F____