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The Evil Function of The Trinity, Part 4

 [Study Aired June 14, 2026]

I closed our last study with the promise to read the question you posed about how Christ could be in all of his creatures if He were a created being. Here is your question:

“I also cannot see how Christ, the Son of God, if a created being, is able to dwell in all his creatures. All creation was created in and through Christ, and all creation must have Christ in it if it is to have any glory or perfection. I hope you believe that I have no intention of arguing with you or anyone; I merely want to know what the truth is, and I feel that William Law has explained the nature of the Trinity better than anyone I have ever read. For a better and more in-depth understanding of what I have referred to, you can look up these two books of William Law’s on the internet and see whether you agree or disagree with him.” (End Quote)

I concluded that study with these two verses:

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Heb 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

I have no doubt that you are seeking to know what scripture teaches us concerning the Godhead. I do not think for one moment you want to argue. Therefore, I am taking the time to show you the scriptures which explain how Christ can be within me here in the United States while also being within His children in Australia and all over the globe.

I, too, “merely want to know the Truth.” Though we may not see everything alike, we will agree that we must ‘try the spirits’ but not with either my writings or Andrew Jukes’ or William Law’s writings. We ‘try the spirits’ with the Word of God and the Truth, both of which are titles given to Christ:

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

I am not intending to cast Mr. Law in a bad light, but Christ’s explanation of the Holy Spirit is better than Mr. Law’s. So, we will examine what “the sum” of the scriptures themselves teach “line upon line, and precept upon precept, here a little and there a little” (Isa 28:9-13), and we will compare the scriptures with the writings of William Law:

Psa 119:160  The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever. (ASV)

Isa 28:9  Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10  For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Failing to apply these two sections of scripture to help us understand the Bible has contributed heavily to producing the over 40,000 conflicting Christian denominations. We will seek not ‘some of thy word’, but “the sum of Thy Word” concerning the Godhead and how Christ, being a created being, can still live His  life within each of us:

Let’s begin our study with a few verses in which Christ calls the holy spirit “the spirit of Truth” and He tells us that the Father has given to Him “all things”, including the spirit of Truth:

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15  All things [even God’s Spirit] that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The nine times the pronoun, ‘he’ appears in John 16:13-15, they are referring back to the ‘parakletos’, the “comforter” mentioned previously in verses 7-8:

Joh 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter [G3875: ‘parakletos’] will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

I don’t understand why you think that if Christ is a created being that He is therefore “[un]able to dwell in all of His creatures.” Are you saying that if Christ is truly “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev 3:14) that therefore Christ cannot make the claim that “All things that the Father hath are mine?” Is that not the equivalent of saying ‘If Christ is a created being, then it is not possible for Him to create anything?’ It is Paul who, inspired by the holy spirit, said in 1 Corinthians 11 that “as the woman is of the man, even so is the man by the woman.” Paul is explaining “the Godhead… by the things that are made.”

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: [“The head of Christ is God”]

According to the apostle Paul, who is writing under the inspiration of the holy spirit, our relationship to Christ parallels Christ’s relationship with The Father.

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:8  For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9  Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Co 11:12  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

Christ is called “the everlasting Father” in:

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Finally, you paraphrase what I said about 1 Corinthians 11:

“I also remember you mentioning something about Adam and Eve – how God creates through Christ, as Adam creates through Eve (I can’t remember exactly, so forgive me if I have gotten it wrong), as somehow proving that Christ is an inferior created being to the Father.”

Certainly I forgive you. I simply pointed out that if there is any Truth to what Paul tells us about how to understand the Godhead by the things that are made (Rom 1:20), then there can be no truth to the trinity doctrine because Paul tells us that even now, long after Christ’s resurrection, that to understand His eternal power and Godhead, we must understand and believe that “the Head of Christ is God” just as “the head of the woman is the man”.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

1Co 11:11  Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
1Co 11:12  For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

“The head of Christ is God… but all things of God” accords with Paul’s doctrine concerning the Godhead in:

1Co 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and [besides this “one God, the Father” there is also] one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

That is how the scriptures teach us to understand the Godhead. 1 Corinthians 11:12 tells us that all men come “by the woman; but all things of God.” 1 Corinthians 8:6 tells us that ‘all things are by Christ but of the Father.’

“The things that are made” which make the Godhead to be “clearly seen” are revealed to be the “head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God”. Since the Father created all things by Christ and is the head of Christ that signifies Christ as the wife of the Father.

Here Paul has two chances to explain the Godhead to us, and in neither case does he so much as hint at a third “equal but separate person of the Godhead.” Those are not scriptural words, and that certainly is not a scriptural phrase!

God the Father could never “empty Himself” of His divinity and come down into this death realm of physical existence to die for the sins of the world. However, being a created being, Christ could and did do just that:

Php 2:6  who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal to God something to seize and hold.
Php 2:7  But he emptied himself, having taken a form of a bondman, having become in a likeness of men.
Php 2:8  And having been found in a form like a man, he lowered himself, having become obedient until death, even of death from a cross.
Php 2:9  Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name above every name,
Php 2:10  so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of the heavenly, and the earthly, and the sub-earthly, (ACV)

Here is yet another opportunity Paul had to emphasize the triune Godhead and once again he fails to do so simply because the word ‘trinity’ and the false doctrine of a triune God made up of three separate but equal persons is not to be found in the scriptures.

We are told that Christ was conceived “of the holy spirit” yet Christ never once claimed the holy spirit as His Father. Instead Christ is referred to as “the Son of God”:

Gal 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman [sinful flesh], made under the law [the “church in the wilderness”]

So when Paul tells us that Christ was “made to be sin for us …”

2Co 5:21  Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that *we* might become God’s righteousness in him. (Darby)

…He is not talking about Christ being crucified; he is referring to Christ being made flesh. According to the law of the offerings, we are sin simply by virtue of our birth in Adamic flesh.

Psa 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Getting back to the purpose for marriage as it relates to our understanding of the Godhead, do you think I am misunderstanding Paul? Here are his own words concerning the lessons of married life:

Eph 5:22  Wives [husbands], submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23  For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24  Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27  That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eph 5:28  So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29  For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31  For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32  This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

I dare say that even Mr. Law would be hard pressed to show how the trinity is typical of a married couple!

While I respect Mr. Law, I cannot concede that 1+1=3.

To me “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things [including the one Lord] and one Lord, Jesus Christ by whom are all things [just as all men come into this world by a woman].

1Co 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

You say:

”All creation was created in and through Christ, and all creation must have Christ in it if it is to have any glory or perfection.” (End Quote)

I could not agree more. As I said before I don’t see what Christ being created has to do with this.

Here is how Christ intends to use His created ‘Wife:’

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus:

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach unto the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9 and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things;
Eph 3:10 to the intent that now unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known through the church the manifold wisdom of God,

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: [not ‘out of light into darkness back into light’, as the false doctrine of ‘the fall of man’ teaches]

Psa 68:35 O God, thou art terrible out of thy holy places: The God of Israel, he giveth strength and power unto his people. Blessed be God.

If Christ can do all this for those who come out of Him, why could not God do the same for that which we are told “proceeded out from the Father” and is “the beginning of the creation of God?” (Rev 3:14)

Joh 8:42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

The One who sends is always greater than the one who is sent, and that is exactly what Christ tells us is true of His Head, His Father:

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

In traditional Trinitarian theology, this statement is interpreted “as referring to functional subordination and positional humility during Jesus’ earthly ministry, rather than a difference in divine nature or essence.”

Traditional trinitarian theology is proven to be unscriptural because, as we have quoted several times already in this study, the scriptures declare that the Father is still head of Christ even now. I will quote that verse again:

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

It is Christ Himself who informs us that He is the first thing His Father created, and then through Christ the Father created everything that exists:

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Joh 1:3  All things were made by [G1223: ‘dia’, through] him [Christ]; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1Co 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by [G1223, ‘dia’, through] whom are all things, and we by [G1223: ‘dia’, through] him.

I apologize for the length of this e- mail. I hope I have expressed my thoughts in a spirit that has not offended you.

Your brother in Christ,

Mike

The Evil Function of The Doctrine of The Trinity – Part 1

[Updated May 23, 2026]

K___ wrote: Hello Mike, Thanks for inviting me to write back. Concerning your email and article about your understanding of the Godhead; I have read it and believe I grasp your view, although I’m not sure I agree with you. Even as you wrote, I am willing to have my understanding change if I am wrong. I wouldn’t believe in the Trinity simply because tradition threatened me with hell-fire if I didn’t. Have you ever considered William Law’s understanding of the Trinity? It seems to make sense to me. Although this section deals with man created in the image of God, I believe it gives an understanding of the Trinity as he [William Law] saw it. (Italics mine) I’ll quote:

“Nothing can so fully, and justly show us the true nature of our Fall, as the nature and manner of our Redemption. These things have such a necessary correspondence, as cannot be denied, but by a mind utterly indisposed to receive conviction.” (End Quote)

 So let’s consider what Law says concerning the original of man in the image of God. [Emphasis Mike’s]

“Man was created by God after His own Image, and in His own Likeness, as a living mirror of the Divine Nature; where Father, Son and Holy Ghost, each brought forth their own nature in a creaturely manner. As the who is begotten of the Father, is the brightness of the Father’s glory, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son, as an amiable moving Life of both; so it was in this created image of the holy trinity. In it the Father’s nature generated the nature of the Son, and the Holy Ghost proceeds from them both, as an amiable moving life of both. This was the likeness or Image of God, in which the first man was created, a true offspring of God, in whom the Divine Birth sprung up as in the Deity, where Father, Son and Holy Ghost saw themselves in a creaturely manner. In the Divine nature the Father cannot possibly be separated from the Son, nor the Holy Ghost from both, or either of them.” (End Quote)

 I understand this to mean that man because of his likeness to God, could commune with God. Man’s soul in the likeness of God generated a life that was as God’s Life. This seems correct to me because man’s soul is constantly generating or giving forth a birth of some life. Now this life is either good or evil depending on the state of his soul; whether it be good or evil. (So it seems to me) Now let’s consider what happened to the state of his soul after the fall, according to [William] Law. [Emphasis Mike’s]

“Now by his transgression this image of the Holy Trinity was broken; the generation or birth of the Son or Word, and the proceeding of the Holy Ghost in him, were at an end; in the day that he sinned, in that day he died this death. And therefore what was he as to his soul? It was something that was deprived of that birth, which was the brightness of it’s glory, and which should be that in it, which the Son of God is to the Father; it wanted [lacked] that Spirit which was it’s amiable life, and which was to be that to it, which the Holy Ghost is to the Father and Son….. This was the state of the soul after the fall, when the birth of the Son of God and the proceeding of the Holy Ghost, were no more to be found or felt in it. Now it is a plain, manifest doctrine of the holy scriptures that man by the fall is in such a condition, that there was no help or remedy for him….. but by the Son of God’s becoming Incarnate, taking the fallen nature upon him. If this alone could be the remedy, does not this enough show us the disease? Does not this speak plainly enough, what it was that man had lost by his fall, namely, the birth of the Son of God in his soul and the procession of the Holy Ghost; and therefore it was that only the Son of God in so mysterious a manner, could be his Redeemer. If he had lost less, a less power could have redeemed him….. But since it is an open, undeniable doctrine of the Gospel, that there can be no salvation for mankind, but in the name and in the power of the Son of God, by His being united to the fallen nature, and so raising his own birth and life in it; is it not sufficiently shown us, that what was lost by the fall, was the birth of the Son of God in the soul?”

“It is said that we must be born again from above, born of God, born of the spirit; for this is expressly telling us what birth we have lost, and is only saying that the first birth is to be restored, or that divine birth is to arise, or to be brought again into us, as at the first, when the living image of the Holy Trinity was brought forth in us.” – The Grounds and Reasons of Christian Regeneration. (End Quote)

 I just want to add something here – I believe, if I am not mistaken, that you say that Christ is the Holy Spirit. But is this necessarily the case, though. It is true that Christ equates the coming of the Holy Spirit, with His coming to them; but does this mean He is the Holy Spirit? Is it not merely the case that as the Holy Spirit can only proceed from Christ (and the Father, I know!) that He (the Holy Spirit) can only come to them when Christ comes to them? This seems right to me.

Resuming William Law’s doctrine of the trinity:

“When it is known that the triune nature of God was brought forth in the creation of man, that it was lost in his fall, that it is restored in his redemption, a never- failing light arises in all scripture, from Genesis to Revelation.”

“The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is wholly practical; it is revealed to us, to discover our high original, and the greatness of our fall, to show us the deep and profound operation of the triune God in the recovery of the divine life in our souls…. for as everything that is in us, whether it be heaven or hell, rises up in by a birth, and is generated in us by the will- spirit of our souls, which kindles itself either in heaven or in hell; so this mystery of a triune Deity manifesting itself, as a Father creating, as a Son or Word regenerating, as a Holy Spirit sanctifying us, is not to entertain our speculation with dry, metaphysical distinctions of the Deity, but to show us from what a height and depth we are fallen, and to excite such a prayer and faith…… after this triune fountain of all good, as may help to generate and bring forth in us that first image of the Holy Trinity in which we were created, and which must be born in us before we can enter into the state of the blessed…… No person has fitness, nor any pretense, nor any ground from scripture, to think, or say anything of the Trinity, till such time as he stands in the state of the penitent returning prodigal, weary of his own sinful shameful nature; and desiring to renounce the world, the flesh and the devil, and then he is first permitted to be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; this is the first time the Gospel teaches, or calls anyone to the acknowledgement of the Holy Trinity.” – An Appeal to all who Doubt the Truths of the Gospel (End Quote Emphasis Mike’s]

I also cannot see how Christ, the Son of God, if a created being, is able to dwell in all His creatures. All creation was created in and through Christ, and all creation must have Christ in it if it is to have any glory or perfection. I hope you believe that I have no intention of arguing with you or anyone; I merely want to know what the truth is, and I feel that William Law has explained the nature of the Trinity better than anyone I have ever read. For a better and more in- depth understanding of what I have referred to, you can look up these two books of William Law’s on the internet and see whether you agree or disagree with him. I also remember you mentioning something about Adam and Eve – how God creates through Christ, as Adam creates through Eve (I can’t remember exactly, so forgive me if I have gotten it wrong), as somehow proving that Christ is an inferior created being to the Father. Consider the teaching of Jacob Boehme on this subject:

“God created His Image and Likeness in a single man. Adam was a man and also a woman;…. for God did not in the beginning make man and woman; He did not create them at the same time, because the life in which the two properties of masculine and feminine are united in one, constitutes man in the Image of God…. after the manner of the Father’s and Son’s property, which together are one God, not divided; for perfect love is not found in one property, but in the two, one entering into the other”. – Man in the Image of the Heavenly (Treasures from the writings of Jacob Boehme (End Quote)

Please let me know what you think of all this, whether you agree or disagree. Yours sincerely, K____

Hi K____,

It is good to hear from you again.

Just weigh what I say against the scriptures and don’t allow ‘scholarship,’ name recognition or the fact that someone has been so helpful in the past, to keep you from “trying the spirits.” How do we ‘try the spirits?’

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

‘Trying the spirits’ has to do with whether we should “believe” what we are being taught. I say all this with the greatest respect and appreciation for men like Andrew Jukes, William Law and Jacob Boehme. However, I never forget the need to “try the spirits.”

When I do this I am not ‘trying’ these men. One thing I am convinced of by Christ Himself is that we are not judged by what we produce. Rather, we are judged by what we do with what we are given, as demonstrated in the parable of the talents.

Luk 12:47  And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

What I mean by that is that God did not reveal to Andrew Jukes that “we are the circumcision” (Php 3:3). Andrew Jukes did not see nor fully comprehend the truth that “He is NOT a Jew which is one outwardly” (Rom.2:27-29). He did not fully understand that we “were [past tense] Gentiles,” but now in Christ we “are made near [to the] commonwealth of Israel [and are now] fellowcitzens in the commonwealth of Israel” (Eph. 2:11-19). Jukes did not see that the “Jerusalem that now is, is in bondage with her children… and we [Gentile Galatians] are the  children of the free woman” (Gal. 4:21-31). Jukes did not believe that “Jerusalem which now is… is in bondage with her children” and is “cast out” and “shall not be heir with the son of the free woman”, the Gentile Christians.

Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son [physical Israel]: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we [Gentile Christians] are not children of the bondwoman [physical Israel], but of the free.

Not being given this knowledge, Mr. Jukes draws the erroneous conclusion that Paul’s letters are ‘Katurah’.

“They [Paul’s writings] ‘smell sweet,’ but they will never be allowed to inherit the promises given to Abraham, because they were not born of Isaac.” (from Types In Genesis).

As much respect as I have for Mr Jukes, on this point he is dead wrong. What he teaches concerning physical, Christ-denying Israel, is the exact opposite of what the holy spirit inspired Paul to tell us:

Gal 4:28  Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29  But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30  Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31  So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

“We… as Isaac was, ARE the children of promise.”  “Israel [Isaac’s descendants] have not obtained that which he sought after, but the election [Gentiles in Christ] have obtained it.”

The Lord, sadly, blinded Mr. Jukes eyes from seeing the last verse of the previous chapter:

Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Mr. Jukes missed all of that. I do not hold that against him; I simply ‘try the spirits, to see whether they be of God.’

Now I point all that out about Andrew Jukes so you will see where I am coming from when I answer your question about William Law’s doctrine of the trinity. Mr. Law obviously believes in the unscriptural doctrine of the ‘fall of man.’  Neither Christ nor any of His apostles ever mentioned the so-called “fall of Adam.”

The reason no New Testament writer ever uses the phrase ‘the fall’ is that all the New Covenant writers understood that:

Jer 18:4  And the vessel that he made of clay [Adam] was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made [the Hebrew reads ‘is making’] it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Every verb in that verse is in the Hebrew Qal Stem, which informs those with eyes to see the Adam, one generation after the other, is being made of clay, being made flesh and blood, was never intended to be the finished product. Adam was made of clay, and clay has nowhere to fall. Adam was “made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope.”

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made [right from the hand of the Creator] subject to vanity, not willingly [not by choice], but by reason of him  who hath subjected the same in hope.

 It was Christ Himself who made the first Adam “marred in the Potter’s hand… subject to vanity.” None of that was of Adam’s choosing nor by Adam’s fabled ‘free will.’

Read ‘After The Counsel of His Own Will at this link: https://www.iswasandwillbe.com/after-the-counsel-of-his-own-will/

This is what is meant when we read:

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of  the dust of the ground [“marred”, Jer 18:4; “corruption”, 1Co 15:50, nowhere to ‘fall’, 1Co 15:50], and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Every “living soul” is also a ‘dying soul.’

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

So much for the false doctrine of an “immortal soul”, which is contingent upon the greater false doctrine of ‘the trinity’.

William Law teaches the false doctrine of a triune God and then uses that false doctrine to establish the false doctrine of a triune man. Yes, mankind does possess a soul, a body and a spirit, but they are all the same person, and the soul is simply God’s knowledge of who we are even after the sinning soul dies. That ‘soul’ is not indestructible:

Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 12:4  And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
Luk 12:5  But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

The Greek word translated as ‘hell’ here in Matthew and in Luke is ‘gehenna’. Gehenna signifies the lake of fire/second death in which our old man, our ‘soul’ is destroyed but “he himself shall be saved though as by [the lake of] fire”:

1Co 3:13  Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man’s work shall be burned [old man’s ‘soul’ destroyed], he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This is the same message given to Eve and  Cain. Eve’s curse was to be against her husband but with the assurance that in the end her husband,  signifying Christ, “shall rule over thee.”

Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to [Hebrew: ‘el’, against] thy husband, and [“though as by fire”, (1Co 3:15)] he shall rule over thee.

In the next chapter sin is personified, and Cain is told that even though sin is at the door in the end “though as by fire… you will rule over him.”

Gen 4:6  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7  If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto [Hebrew: ‘el’, against] thee shall be his desire, and [“though as by fire”] thou shalt rule over him.
Gen 4:8  And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against [Hebrew: ‘el’, same Hebrew word translated a ‘to’ in Genesis 3:16] Abel his brother, and slew him.

What was Adam? Was he a spirit having a physical experience as so many teach and believe? Let’s try that spirit and put it up against these words of our Lord:

Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of  it  wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This is what we are being told when we read:

Gen 2:25  And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Adam and you and I are dust, and if the Lord does not raise us up from death we will have “perished”:

1Co 15:16  For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17  And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

If there is no resurrection then the “[dead] in Christ are perished”. The dead are not up in heaven, nor down in hell. They “are perished” unless they are resurrected.

Do you realize how few people believe these words. The whole Christian world believes that “He created man in His image” means that man was made perfect and immortal, and then he fell. The Truth of the scriptures is:

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made [right from the hand of the Creator] subject to vanity, not willingly [here is the Truth, it wasn’t by Adam’s fabled ‘free choice’ or his will], but by reason of him [God Himself] who hath subjected the same in hope

 God’s original plan was for Adam to disobey Him and come to see his corruptible nature and his need for a Savior. God had already provided this Savior before he ever created Adam. God is operating on plan A, and has been from the beginning.

We will pause our study at this point and in our next study we will give the scriptures which demonstrate the truth of the statement that Christ “was slain before the foundation of the world. (Rev 13:8).

[Click here for part 2.]

[Posted November 16, 2024]

Hi Mike,

In Mark 13:32 we read that no man, nor the angels, nor the Son, knows the day or the appointed time.

Does this mean there are some things that even Jesus does not know?

Thanks so much for your help, it’s always appreciated.

your brother,

C___

Hi C___,

Thank you for your patience, and for your question.

You quoted:

Mar 13:32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mar 13:33  Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

I will take Christ’s word that He does not know the day nor the hour of His appearing in power and glory to rule this earth with His elect.

What your question highlights is the absurdity of the doctrine of a three headed Godhead, “co-equal in every way”. Christ made it clear that His Father was greater that He:

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Why would we be surprised that there are things the Father does not at this time share with His Son if indeed “My Father is greater than I”?

Joh 5:30  I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Those who teach the false doctrine of a triune God argue that the Father’s superiority to Christ lasted only while He was in the flesh. Of course they have no scripture on which to base such a statement. On the other hand we have this statement which was made long after Christ had returned in spirit to be with His Father:

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

The answer to your question… “Does this mean there are some things that even Jesus does not know?” is in that 3rd verse of 1Corinthians 11…. “…the head of Christ is God [the Father]. It is obvious that every thought originates in our head before our bodies manifest what is in our thoughts. So the answer is, Yes there is at least one thing the Father knows that Christ does not know and that is the day and hour of His appearing.

Mar 13:32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

The only people who would have a problem with the Father knowing more than the Son are those who are self-righteously invested in the false doctrine of a triune Godhead. If you have not yet done so be sure to read this link:

Is God a Trinity?

I hope this helps you, C___.

Your fellow servant,
Mike

Dear Mike,

I’ve just read this ​article ​of yours​ “Is God a Trinity?

This was written several years ago, so I wanted to ask if you still regard the triadic form as inauthentic, not inspired?

I’ve informally explored this today and find no compelling reason to take that position, it really does seem to be authentic when we apply the same basic principles that we apply to other scriptures when establishing authenticity.

A most detailed analysis was ​this ​one​ [link given]​​ on the claims of inauthenticity​.

I’d like to hear more from you on this purported inauthenticity when time permits.

Many thanks,

H​____​

Hi ​H____​,

I looked at the link you sent me​,​ and to answer your question directly, yes, I do stand by the words in the article ‘Is God A Trinity?’ on iswasandwillbe.com. I saw so much heresy in the first part​ of the link​ you sent, including the false doctrine of ‘free moral agency’, the apostles creed, and the didache (an early manuscript written in the first century A.D.), that I was not led to waste any more of my time with it.

I was much more edified with the list of seven objections to this false doctrine than any of the arguments he used to justify attempting to deny that the God-head is supposed to be understood by “the things that are made”, especially the male and the female “things that are made”:

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is what Paul tells us he meant by that very clear statement:

1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God… [“the Father”]

How can a three​-​headed monstrosity have a single “head”, as we see in all of “the things that are made”?

Paul had already made it perfectly clear in this same epistle what he means when he speaks of “the head of Christ”:

1Co 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of [G1537​:​ ek, out of] whom are all things [including “the beginning of the creation of God”… Christ, Rev 3:14], and we in him; and [besides this “one God” there is also] one Lord Jesus Christ, by [G1223​:​ ‘dia’, ‘through’] whom are all things, and we by [G1223​:​ ‘dia’, ‘through’] him.

Notice, I never quote any of the apostate, so​-​called “church fathers”. The apostle Paul and I are on the same page… “There is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and [there is also besides the “one God the Father”] one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things”, just as Paul explains in that same 11th chapter. Adam, like God the Father, was first, and out of Him Christ brought a woman of whom Adam was to be the head, reflecting “even His eternal power and Godhead, so we would be without excuse” (Rom 1:20).

I read enough of that link to see this writer quoting Ellen White as if that meant anything. But the worst thing I saw was the circular reasoning of admitting and even quoting where the Catholic Encyclopedia admits, and one of the Popes admit introducing this heresy and then, because the apostasy of  the church was completed before the apostles died, this writer quotes those very apostates saying that the trinity is a Biblical doctrine, and calling me ”dishonest” because I notice how willing he is to use men as his authority instead of the clear words of scripture, a few of which I have quoted above.

Just look at how this man uses apostates as sources and then condemns those who reveal their apostasy as “dishonest” for simply pointing other​s​ to their confessions of tampering with and changing the words of scripture to fit the idols of their hearts:

“Charge 5 – The Catholic Church confesses to changing the words

This is probably the weakest of all the arguments. This can be considered to be debunked by all the evidence we have seen up until this point. However, sometimes there is a lack of care in reading the words of the Catholic writers. [Who cares about the “words of Catholic writers” – 1Co 4:6] Most of these so-called ‘confessions’ do not pertain to the text of Matthew 28:19 but the use of Matthew 28:19 as a liturgical baptismal formula. For example:

“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. II, p. 263)

Notice that this statement pertains to the formula used in baptism. We have seen that the words of Matthew 28:19 were not originally a formula and that this later development occurred in the second and third centuries. So this is simply a reflection of fact. Perhaps the most misused quote from the Catholic Church on this regard is from then future pope, Joseph Ratzinger.

“The basic form of our profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text comes from the city of Rome; but its internal origin lies in worship; more precisely, in the conferring of baptism.” (Joseph Ratzinger, Introduction to Christianity, 2nd Edition)

This quote is used dishonestly by many who reject the words of Matthew 28:19. The “text” that is being referred to in the quote is not the text of Matthew 28:19, but the Apostles Creed. Note the discussion leading immediately up to the above quote:

“All that we have said so far has done no more than attempt to answer the formal question of what belief as such is and where in the world of modern thought it can find a starting point and a function to perform. The more far-reaching problems relating to its content thus necessarily remained open-with the whole subject permaps looking only too pale and ill-defined. The answers can only be found by looking at the concrete shape of Christian belief, and this we now mean to consider, using the so-called Apostles’ Creed as a guiding thread. It may be useful to preface the discussion with a few facts about the origin and structure of the Creed; these will at the same time through some light on the legitimacy of the procedure.” (loc. cit.)

In fact, Ratzinger later goes on to quote Matthew 28:19 as the basis for the Apostles’ Creed, showing that Ratzinger understands these to be the words of Christ.

“This again was fundamentally based on the words of Christ recorded in Matthew 28:19: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” (loc. cit.)

So it is clear that whoever first used this quote to question the wording of Matthew 28:19 did so dishonestly. All who have subsequently used these words have done so lazily, never checking the context. [End of Quote]

Just look at all the authorities this man quotes! He is obviously totally unaware of this verse of scripture:

1Co 4:6  Now these things, brothers, I applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us ye might learn not to think above that which is written, so that ye may not be puffed up, one over the one against the other. (ACV)

Why would we quote an apostate to begin with, and why would any truly honest person care what the doctrines of apostate so-called ‘church fathers’ are, who thought it completely scriptural to physically kill anyone they considered to be an apostate? I have never denied that I am commanded to “love [my] enemies”, not burn them at a stake and cut out their tongue before doing so, so that person cannot utter another word of his so-called heresy. These men were one and all as carnal as the first Adam himself, and their own mouths condemn them, and all who stand with them, and their hearts idols will receive the same reward:

Eze 14:7  For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
Eze 14:8  And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Eze 14:9  And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Eze 14:10  And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; 

This writer points out the apostasy of the doctrine of a triune God, even with quotes from the apostates themselves like these:

“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. II, p. 263)

“The basic form of our profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text comes from the city of Rome; but its internal origin lies in worship; more precisely, in the conferring of baptism.” (Joseph Ratzinger, Introduction to Christianity, 2nd Edition)

“The text comes from the city of Rome… by the Catholic Church”, and it is certainly “above that which is written” which is “in Jesus’ name” as demonstrated throughout the book of Acts. What does it matter if “the text referred to is the apostles’ creed”? The subject is still “in connection with the ceremony of baptism”, and the scriptures reveal time after time the disciples baptized “in the name of the Lord Jesus”:

Act 19:5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

What a slap in the face of an “equal but separate part of the Godhead” to be so sleighted over and  over and  over again throughout all the Gospels and Acts and all the epistles of the apostles, to leave out such an “equal but separate” person.

The false doctrine of a triune God is the trunk of the tree of all the false doctrines which shore up all the daughters of the great harlot. It is this doctrine which teaches that since God is triune, and we are in His image, therefore we, too, must be a triune being with a body and an immortal soul and a spirit. Without this foundation of lies, there could not be the other false doctrines of the immortality of the soul and an eternal hell of literal flames of fire tormenting me with excruciating pain for all eternity by a ‘God of love’.

Why is the Greek word ‘parakleetos‘ translated with two different English words if not to hide the truth that Jesus Christ was given His Father’s spirit so Christ Himself could come to us through His Father’s spirit, as the comforter to His elect, and through that same “holy spirit of God” (Eph 4:30) Christ is also our “advocate [parakleetos] with the Father”:

Joh 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter [Greek​:​ parakleetos] that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17  Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 

How could the ‘holy ghost’ “dwell with you” if “it is expedient that I go away because if I go not away the comforter cannot come”???

“The comforter, the spirit of Truth, [and our] advocate with [the one God] the Father”​,​ are all through “the holy spirit of God” (Eph 4:30) one and the same… “the man Jesus Christ”:

Joh 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he [the parakleetos, also called…], the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15  All things [including “the holy spirit of God” Eph 4:30] that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The holy spirit clearly is not a person, rather it is “the holy spirit of God”, the holy spirit of the “one God, the Father, of whom are all things”, and who has given that spirit to Christ and through “the holy spirit of God” Christ is now accomplishing all His Father has placed upon Him, including being our “advocate with the ​(​”one God”), the Father”:

1Jn 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not [including the teaching of false doctrines]. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Same Greek word ‘parakleetos‘ translated as ‘comforter’ in John 14, 15, and 16] with the Father [And who is our ‘parakleetos‘, our ‘advocate with the Father’? Well, ​l​o and behold it is] , Jesus Christ the righteous:

The Greek for our English words “holy ghost” is hagios pneuma, and it is defined in scripture simply as “the holy spirit of God”:

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Why doesn’t this verse read “the Holy Ghost of God” as these two words ‘hagios pneuma‘ are translated everywhere else in the New Testament? I think we both know why that is. It would reveal that the holy spirit is the power of God and is not a person of the Godhead which is to be “understood by the things that are made… the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God” (1Co 11:3).

Why did Christ say that His Father had given Him all things, including His Father’s spirit, which Christ was now free to give to others?

Joh 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Why is it “expedient that [Christ] go away”? Is the third part of the Godhead restricted by the second part? How absurd! The reason Christ had to go away was so He Himself could, through “the holy spirit of God”​,​ come and dwell within each of His elect. He does not dwell in any who are teaching lies about “His eternal power and Godhead” such as the false doctrine of a “triune God” of whom “the things that are made​”​ teach us nothing.

In these verses in John 16, Christ refers to the holy spirit as both “the comforter” and as “the spirit of Truth”. He also tells us “I am the way the Truth and the life”. Then after explaining all of this​,​ He tells us plainly​,​ “All things the Father [the “one God” of 1Co 8:6] has are mine, that is why I said that He shall take of mine [the comforter and the spirit of Truth] and shall show it unto you​.​”

Your brother who, Lord willing, will never “think above that which is written” (1Co 4:6),

Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the wonderful teachings. They’re a Godsend. I heard that when you look up the word God, it’s a plural word and a title with Father and Son within the Godhead meaning divine ones and we were redeemed back to our family within the Godhead. Do you have any thoughts on this?

Yours sincerely,
J____

Hi J____,

Thank you for encouraging words of gratitude, and thank you for your question.

You asked:

I heard that when you look up the word ‘God’, it’s a plural word and a title with Father and Son within the Godhead meaning divine ones, and we were redeemed back to our family within the Godhead. Do you have any thoughts on this?

There are times in the original Hebrew and Greek that a plural is used, and there are times in both languages when the singular is used. It certainly is not plural in this verse:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and [besides the “one God, the Father” there is also] one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

On the other hand, when we see the word ‘us’ used with the word ‘God’ as in Genesis 1, that Hebrew word is Elohim, and it is a plural form, which is translated with the singular English word ‘God’.

Gen 1:26 And God [Hebrew: Elohim – Christ and the Father] said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Since you asked for my comment, I will assure you that our coming to know God and His son is a first time thing and not something we are “redeemed back to” as if we started out as part of the family of God. We are indeed ‘redeemed’, but we are ‘redeemed’ from sin and death, the “marred” state in which we came from “the Potter’s hand”:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

I will close by encouraging you to read ‘Is God A Trinity’ which can be found here.

Your brother and servant,

Mike

Hello Mike,

Where do I start? You are certainly a student of the scriptures and have plumbed its depths and certainly are to be commended. Yet there is always more we are learning, and only God knows all things. Col 2:3

Have you ever considered 1 Cor 12:3 no one can say Jesus is Lord (Jehovah) except by the Holy Spirit. If we have the Spirit of God, Rom 8:9,14,27 we are walking in the light even as He is in the light.

The gospel tells us that Jesus existed in the heavens from eternity Micah 5:2 Although He was existing in God’s form, He thought it not robbery to be equal with God but emptied Himself and became a man, the ultimate humiliation. Jesus did this because God cannot die, but as a man He could. Php 2:

Jesus is now the son of God, He retains His humanity for ever. Have you ever thought that there was a time when Jesus was not the Son. Father and Son being human concepts, father presupposes that he is older than a son and son presupposes that he is younger than a father yet we know that both have no beginning, they have always existed. Jesus is the son because of the event 2000 years ago in Bethlehem. Jesus is the firstborn, it is a title which means first in preeminence.

The bible tells us that the Father is greater than the Son John 14:28 This is true in regard to relationship, a father is greater than a son but this is in regard to rank not essence. The Father is not better than the son, they are both the same quality. As an example the husband is greater than the wife but he is not better than her as they are both human beings. Both the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have the same family name, Jehovah Matt 28:19

If words have meaning and the bible was inspired by God, the Holy Spirirt and He chose to use the masculine pronoun ‘He’ in reference to Himself, it would be for us a contradiction and error to argue with Him.

As I pointed out in my essay, how many Kings do you worship? How many can be First and Last? Who is the Husband, the Father or is it the Son? Or who is the Rock, Jesus or is it the Father? The correct answer is the one true God. Is Jesus part of the one true God? John 17:3 It is life eternal to know the only true God. Eternal Life lies in Jesus Christ for there is not another name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Jesus is certainly then a part of the one true God.

The Holy Spirit longs to have fellowship with us and give to us His gifts of love, joy, peace, forbearance etc.

If you come to the table and do not regard the one next to you, just what kind of relationship is there to be had? Jesus says, If you do not believe that I am who I say I am, ye shall die in your sins. Similarly every sin will be forgiven men except the blasphemey (sin) against the Holy Spirit Matt 12:31,32 Why would you grieve the Holy Spirit with unbelief? Eph 4:30 Isiah 63:10

May God richly bless you, A____

Hi A____,

Thank you for your kind words. Yes, it is obvious that we both have given this subject much thought.

You ask me:

“Have you ever thought that there was a time when Jesus was not the Son. Father and Son being human concepts, father presupposes that he is older than a son and son presupposes that he is younger than a father yet we know that both have no beginning, they have always existed.”

Yes, indeed, I have considered Christ’s origins, and I am aware that He pre-existed. But no, Christ’s pre-existence does not necessitate Him having no beginning. We are specifically told that we are to understand His eternal power and Godhead by the things that are made”, not by an unscriptural doctrine which the Catholic Encyclopedia admits was added to scripture, as I demonstrate in the paper on the trinity and in this link:

Can A Lie In The Translation Be Weeded Out?

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/trinity.php/

Christ specifically calls Himself “the beginning of the creation of God”.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

According to scripture there was never a time when Christ was not a ‘son’ in the sense of having issued forth from His Father. That fact is plainly stated for us:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and [besides that “one God, the Father, of whom are all things, including Christ, there is also…] one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I simply believe that when I read, “one God the Father, of who are all things… [“all things” includes] one Lord Jesus Christ by whom are all things [is] the beginning of the creation… of [that] one God, the Father”. Why would I want to deny that the “one Lord by whom are all things” is not of the “one Father, “of whom are all things”?

Romans 1:20 tells us how we are to understand “the invisible things of God… even His… Godhead”:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.

“The things that are made” refers specifically to the marriage union, because we are told who is “the head of Christ” in this verse:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

“The head of every man is Christ”; surely no one believes that “every man” is “co-equal” with Christ. “And the head of Christ is God” demonstrates exactly what Romans 1:20 is teaching us and what 1 Corinthians 8:6 is telling us. They all agree that “there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things”. “Of… God… by… Christ” is exactly what Paul says of the man and of the woman, which is “the things that are made [by which] the invisible things of God are clearly seen… even His eternal power and Godhead”.

1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches us the principle that “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things”. Notice the parallel Paul is making in the very same 11th chapter of 1 Corinthians:

1Co 11:12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

That is the scriptural way to understand “even His eternal power and Godhead”. Just as “the head of every man is Christ” so also “the head of Christ is God”.

You make this statement:

“Father and Son being human concepts, father presupposes that he is older than a son and son presupposes that he is younger than a father yet we know that both have no beginning, they have always existed.”

That is classic, human, circular reasoning which completely denies that “the invisible things of God are clearly seen… by the things that are made”.

Your doctrine, in the face of all these verses to the contrary, is: “We know that both have no beginning, [therefore we know] they have always existed”??? I must now choose whether to believe your doctrine that “We know that both have no beginning”, or Christ’s doctrine which tell me plainly that He is “the beginning of the creation of God”, and that “the head of Christ is God” just as “the head of every man is Christ”.

You say “Father and Son being human concepts”, and then attempt to use that fact to prove that human concepts of “the things that are made” are not used by God to explain spiritual concepts. The fact is that, according to the scriptures, Romans 1:20 in particular teaches us that the very opposite is true. I pray you are given to accept what you are about to reread concerning the mind of our “One God, the Father, of whom are all things” as He explains to us how we are given, by Him to understand what is His relationship to our “one Lord by whom are all things”. Here is how He will explain to us His eternal power and [the] Godhead, and His relationship with Christ:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Which “things that are made” will give us a proper understanding of the Godhead? Is this referring to the three parts of an egg? Is this verse referring to the three stages of water, as many trinitarians want us to believe?

If your belief in the trinity has become an “idol of [your] heart”, then nothing the scriptures tell us about who is, was and always will be “the head of Christ”, will change your mind, because you will just continue to believe that the Father and the Son are “co-equal, co-eternal, and co-substantial”.

I cannot agree that He had no beginning when He Himself tells me otherwise:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Here is your e-mail which I will deal with in order.

Your first paragraph:

“Where do I start? You are certainly a student of the scriptures and have plumbed its depths and certainly are to be commended. Yet there is always more we are learning, and only God knows all things. Col 2:3”

I could not agree more. “There is always more we are learning”. Yet while we are learning, we must be discerning what is and what is not “the voice of the… true shepherd”. Christ’s sheep know His voice and will not follow the voice of a stranger (Joh 10:26-30):

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

How could Christ possibly have left out and ignored the third equal person of the Godhead if the holy spirit is actually such a person?

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

“Have you ever considered 1 Cor 12:3 no one can say Jesus is Lord (Jehovah) except by the Holy Spirit. If we have the Spirit of God, Rom 8:9,14, 27 we are walking in the light even as He is in the light. Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.”

Yes, I certainly have considered that verse, and as you yourself use the phrase, “the spirit”, you need to know that”the holy spirit is the “holy spirit of God“.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

“There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things” certainly includes “the holy spirit of God”. It is not a separate person of the Godhead. That is why Christ and all of His apostles never refer to the holy spirit as a person, and that is why they call it, as you yourself did, “the spirit of God”.

“The gospel tells us that Jesus existed in the heavens from eternity Micah 5:2 Although He was existing in God’s form, He thought it not robbery to be equal with God but emptied Himself and became a man, the ultimate humiliation. Jesus did this because God cannot die, but as a man He could. Php 2:”

Here is what Micah 5:2 actually says:

Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting [Hebrew, ‘olawm’.

Now let us examine what the translators have done with this verse to make it accord with their false doctrine of Christ having no beginning. This is something which men ought to fear to do, but which the translators did with impunity. Notice what Mr. James Strong, who was a trinitarian, shows us concerning this verse of scripture. Here is this verse with Strong’s numbers for each Hebrew word beside every English word:

Mic 5:2 But thou,H859 BethlehemH1035 Ephratah,H672 though thou beH1961 littleH6810 among the thousandsH505 of Judah,H3063 yet out ofH4480 thee shall he come forthH3318 unto me that is to beH1961 rulerH4910 in Israel;H3478 whose goings forthH4163 have been from of old,H4480 H6924 from everlasting.H4480 H3117 H5769

I have emboldened the three numbers at the end of this verse to draw attention to the fact that they are translated by but two English words, the words ‘from everlasting’. It is from this verse that you conclude: “The gospel tells us that Jesus existed in the heavens from eternity Micah 5:2”. But the translators were forced to ignore the Hebrew word to which James Strong has assigned the number H3117. Here is what Strong himself tells us that word means:

H3117
יום yôm
yome

From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): – age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

But that word does not accord with the false doctrine which teaches that Christ is not “the beginning of the creation of God” (Rev 3:14), and the Hebrew word behind the number H5769 is ‘olawm’, which is defined thusly:

From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: – always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

It never pays to simply accept Mr. Strong’s definitions without checking how any particular word is used in the scriptures. When we do so, we find that his added words “(practically) eternity” and “eternal” are completely wrong. This Hebrew word is translated with the Greek word ‘aion’ meaning ‘an age’, as in these verses:

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Here is this verse with Strong’s numbers:

Psa 45:6 Thy throne,H3678 O God,H430 is for everH5769 and ever:H5703 the sceptreH7626 of thy kingdomH4438 is a rightH4334 sceptre.H7626

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Here is this verse with Strong’s numbers. Notice that the holy spirit uses just one Greek word to translate the two Hebrew words ‘olawn’ and ‘ad’

Heb 1:8 ButG1161 untoG4314 theG3588 SonG5207 he saith, ThyG4675 throne,G2362 O God,G2316 is for ever and ever:G1519 G165 G165 a sceptreG4464 of righteousnessG2118 is theG3588 sceptreG4464 of thyG4675 kingdom.G932

Here now is Strong’s definition of the Greek word which Mr. Strong has assigned the number G165:

G165
αἰών
aiōn ahee-ohn’

From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): – age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550

The Greek word ‘aion’ is properly translated as “an age”. The “by extension pertpetutiy” is admittedly not “proper”, and is again a blatant addition to the Words of God.

Here is how Rotherham has translated Micah 5:2:

Mic 5:2 Thou, therefore, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though little, to be among the thousands of Judah, out of thee, shall Mine come forth, to be ruler in Israel,—whose comings forth, have been from of old, from the days of age-past time.

Mr. Rotherham was not constrained to leave out the Hebrew word ‘yom’, neither was he inclined to twist the Word ‘olawm’ into making it ‘for ever’. Christ has not always existed, and the scriptures will always bear out that Truth when they are properly translated.

“Jesus is now the son of God, He retains His humanity for ever. Have you ever thought that there was a time when Jesus was not the Son. Father and Son being human concepts, father presupposes that he is older than a son and son presupposes that he is younger than a father yet we know that both have no beginning, they have always existed. Jesus is the son because of the event 2000 years ago in Bethlehem. Jesus is the firstborn, it is a title which means first in preeminence.”

‘Father’ and ‘Son’, are both scriptural words, which are used to explain to us “by the things that are made… His eonian power and Godhead”.

“The bible tells us that the Father is greater than the Son John 14:28 This is true in regard to relationship, a father is greater than a son but this is in regard to rank not essence. The Father is not better than the son, they are both the same quality. As an example the husband is greater than the wife but he is not better than her as they are both human beings. Both the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have the same family name, Jehovah Matt 28:19”

“The Father is greater than the Son in rank” denies that they are co-equal, which is an integral part of the doctrine of the trinity, while at the same time saying the Son is subject to the Father. It is nothing less than the forked tongue of that old serpent the devil, who denied that Adam and Eve would die, while admitting that they would be like God to “know good and evil”. By convincing them they would never die, the serpent made mankind believe the lie that mankind is also an eternal triune being, and therefore it follows that mankind’s Creator was a triune being. This false trinity doctrine is the very foundation upon which the false doctrine of eternal torment is based. If mankind truly dies like a beast, then there is no eternal torment, and if there is not eternal torment then there is no immortal soul, which is exactly what the scriptures actually teach:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

“If words have meaning and the bible was inspired by God the Holy Spirirt and He chose to use the masculine pronoun ‘He’ in reference to Himself, it would be for us a contradiction and error to argue with Him.”

The masculine pronoun ‘him’ is used in scripture to personify sin:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

So the use of the masculine pronoun to prove that the holy spirit is not the spirit of God is not a valid argument when the scripture teach otherwise:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God [“The Father”], whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It would amount to nothing less than a slap in the face of a third equal person to ignore him and leave him out of every mention by the apostles of Christ and His Father, which ‘Father’ just happens to be “the holy spirit”:

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Once again the holy spirit is “the holy spirit of God… the Father of whom are all things” (1Co 8:6).

“As I pointed out in my essay, how many Kings do you worship? How many can be First and Last? Who is the Husband, the Father or is it the Son? Or who is the Rock, Jesus or is it the Father? The correct answer is the one true God. Is Jesus part of the one true God? John 17:3 It is life eternal to know the only true God. Eternal Life lies in Jesus Christ for there is not another name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Jesus is certainly then a part of the one true God.”

Let’s just quote John 17:3 and see what it says:

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

What an absolute insult it is to ignore the “third person of the Godhead” in such a disrespectful manner, if indeed there were such a “person”. But that is not how we are told to “understand His eternal power and God head” (Rom 1:20).

“The head of Christ is God… the Father, of whom are all things”, and that headship is “understood by “the head of the woman is the man”. It is not understood by ‘the head of the woman is Adam and Steve’.

“The Holy Spirit longs to have fellowship with us and give to us His gifts of love, joy, peace, forbearance etc. If you come to the table and do not regard the one next to you, just what kind of relationship is there to be had?”

My point exactly! Why is this supposed third person so ignored by all the writers of the New Testament?

2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

“Jesus says, If you do not believe that I am who I say I am, ye shall die in your sins. Similarly every sin will be forgiven men except the blasphemey (sin) against the Holy Spirit Matt 12:31,32 Why would you grieve the Holy Spirit with unbelief? Eph 4:30 Isaiah 63:10”

Indeed, why would we “grieve the holy spirit of God”? by teaching that the holy spirit is a separate person, instead of simply being the spirit of God of which all ‘the things which are seen [are] made”?

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Here is another link which demonstrates how crucial to the removing of the whole stay of bread is this false doctrine of the trinity:

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/Free_will_fall_trinity.php
The trinity is the trunk of the tree of all false doctines.

Isa 3:1 For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water,

While I have already covered the subject of Christ being the “beginning of the creation of God”, I will take the time to reiterate that point.

Albert Barnes, a trinitarian, in his commentary confesses that the Greek word ‘arche’ as “the author of creation, and in that sense the beginning, though expressing a scriptural doctrine… is not in accordance with the proper meaning of the word [arche] used here…”

“…it may be observed, that the first one – that he is the author of the creation, and in that sense the beginning – though expressing a scriptural doctrine Joh 1:3; Eph 3:9; Col 1:16, is not in accordance with the proper meaning of the word used here – ἀρχὴ archē. The word properly refers to the “commencement” of a thing, not its “authorship,” and denotes properly primacy in time, and primacy in rank, but not primacy in the sense of causing anything to exist. The two ideas which run through the word as it is used in the New Testament are those just suggested. For the former – primacy in regard to time – that is properly the commencement of a thing, see the following passages where the word occurs: Mat_19:4, Mat_19:8; Mat_24:8, Mat_24:21; Mar_1:1; Mar_10:6; Mar_13:8, Mar_13:19; Luk_1:2; Joh_1:1-2; Joh_2:11; Joh_6:64; Joh_8:25, Joh_8:44; Joh_15:27; Joh_16:4; Act_11:15; 1Jo_1:1; 1Jo_2:7, 1Jo_2:13-14, 1Jo_2:24; 1Jo_3:8, 1Jo_3:11; 2Jo_1:5-6. For the latter signification, primacy of rank or authority, see the following places: Luk_12:11; Luk_20:20; Rom_8:38; 1Co_15:24; Eph_1:21; Eph_3:10; Eph_6:12; Col_1:16, Col_1:18; Col_2:10, Col_2:15; Tit_3:1. The word is not, therefore, found in the sense of authorship, as denoting that one is the beginning of anything in the sense that he caused it to have an existence.”

Barnes believes in the doctrine of the trinity and goes right on to effectively deny the point he has just so profoundly demonstrated. Christ has just informed us that He is “the beginning of the creation of God”, and because of that He was able to divest Himself of “the glory [He] had with [His Father] before the world began” and die and be raised up again from among the dead.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

“All things are of… the Father” (1Co 8:6), so there is no possible way for the Father to “empty Himself and take on Him the form of a servant [or] the likeness of men”.

Php 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men;

On the other hand, Christ is called “the image of the invisible God”, and as “the image”, instead of the “one God, the Father of whom are all things”, Christ was capable of “emptying Himself… [of] the glory He had with His Father before the world began”.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

No “image” is the actual thing of which it is the ‘image. Therefore the “image of the invisible God” can be and is “the beginning of the creation of [the] one God, the Father, of whom are all things”, who ‘began his creation’ with Christ, “by whom are all [other] things”, simply because “it pleased the Father”.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Can A Lie In The Translation Be Weeded Out?

Your servant with Christ and His Father,
Mike

Hello Mike,

I chanced upon your site while I was researching another topic and decided to give some of your topics a read. I do agree with some and disagree with others. The trinity is one of them. Kindly have a look at some of the material I have put together from my study of the bible. I have gleaned about 24 characteristics, titles and attributes the bible assigns to the Father, and coincidentally it attributes these very same titles to Christ.

Questions that then arise are many, such as: Does the Holy Spirit live? Or does the Holy Spirit, like water or electricity, exist but not as a sentient being? How many Husbands does the church have, how many Kings do we serve, how can two be first and last or Alpha and Omega, and many more. One thing is certain you will be able to study this topic and come to a determination if you are willing to simply consider what the Bible clearly explains.

Kindly examine what I have compiled, and let me know your thoughts.

May God bless,
A____

Hi A____,

I read your studies, and I see that you have put a lot of study into these two topics of who Christ is and who is the holy spirit.

Here is what you said at the beginning of the study on the holy spirit:

Does the Holy Spirit live? Or does the Holy Spirit, like water or electricity, exist but not as a sentient being?… One thing is certain you will be able to study this topic and come to a determination if you are willing to simply consider what the Bible clearly explains.”

This is true for both of us. You have gone to great lengths to show how the holy spirit is presented as a separate person, but this paradox, just like all the paradoxes you presented concerning the person of Christ, are understood when we are “simply willing to consider what the Bible clearly explains”. I hope you do not take what I quote as a put-down of you as a person. I seek only to know what the scriptures teach, and here is what the Bible “clearly explains” that you may have not yet seen:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul is not denying that Christ is God. He has just told us there are many gods and many Lords, and when Christ Himself was answering His critics concerning His claim to be God Son, He made this same point:

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Christ’s answer to His accusers is that He is not presuming anything to Himself that is not also said of them. We are all “son[s] of God”, and therefore ‘gods’.

If indeed the holy spirit is a separate person, then he would have to be called Christ’s Father because it was He who conceived Christ in Mary’s womb:

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Here is another verse you have not considered:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The only reason the translators did not capitalize the word ‘holy’ is that they think there is a third person, which Paul just left out of 1 Corinthians  8:6. Such is not the case, and Paul was right in leaving out the holy spirit in 1 Corinthians 8:6:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

To us there is but one God, and that ‘one God’ is the Father, of whom are all things, just as Colossians 1 explains. Besides this “one God” there is also one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him, again, just as Paul also explained in Colossians 1:

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he [Christ] is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For [Christ] it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

If indeed the holy spirit is a person simply because the personal pronoun ‘he’ is used in reference to him, then this section of scripture, as well as 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Ephesians 4:30, are nothing less than a slap in the face of that ‘third co-equal person’.

Here is yet another verse of scripture which our Lord Himself used to explain all of this to us:

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He [the spirit of truth] shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All things that the Father has are Christ’s, and that is why Christ said “he, the spirit of truth… the comforter… will guide you into all truth for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.”

The repeated use of the personal pronouns ‘he’ and ‘himself’ in no way change the truth of what Christ is, as you put it, “clearly explain[ ing]”. He is explaining to us that His Father has given Him His spirit, so through that spirit Christ can Himself come and live out His life of suffering for His Church within each of us. Look at how Christ had already worded this truth in the two previous chapters:

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he [Christ] dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [“… Christ in you…”]

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Notice how Christ connects this thing called “the spirit of truth” with “the comforter, which is the holy spirit”:

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

It is all there “clearly explained” by our Lord Himself. It is Christ who sends the holy spirit, which proceeds out from His Father… the spirit of truth, which is the holy spirit… I will send him unto you.” “Him” does not tell us that God’s spirit, which proceeds from Him and “of whom are all things” is a separate person of the godhead. He tells us “I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you”:

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

The godhead is to be understood by the things that are made, and the things that are made which show us how the Godhead operates is the institution of a man and a wife:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is what we are given to help us to understand Christ’s relationship to the Godhead:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God [That “one God the Father of whom are all things” of 1 Corinthians 8:6]

Here is the verse which explains all the apparent paradoxes you have discovered concerning Christ and the holy spirit:

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Christ clearly explains that “[He] and [His] Father are one”, and “He will not share His glory with another”, but He will make us one with Him, and as such we will share in that glory:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint- heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

This is all foolishness to the natural man, but those who have spiritual wisdom within, meaning Christ within, will understand:

Pro 8:8 All the words of my [wisdom’s, Christ’s] mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
Pro 8:9 They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I apologize for this very long email. I encourage you to read a couple of papers on iswasandwillbe. com which have already covered all of this:

Is God A Trinity?

http://iswasandwillbe.com/the_head_of_christ_is_god. php

I was struggling with all of this back in the late 80’s and early 90’s as you are now. If there were any bible softwares available at the time, I knew nothing of them, but I did finally become familiar with George V. Wigram’s Englishman’s Concordances, and I must share with you a discovery which served, for me, to bookend this subject of who and what is the holy spirit. I had used Strong’s concordances and saw that ‘the comforter’ was mentioned only in the gospel of John, and it appeared only four times: Here they all are:

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I had seen clearly in my Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance that the Greek word translated ‘comforter’ is ‘parakleetos‘. However, Strong’s gives only the English first, so if that Greek word appears anywhere else in scripture and is translated with another English word, then without a Wigram’s Concordance, which gives the Greek first, there is no way to know whether, or where else in scripture, any particualar Greek or Hebrew word appears.

So when I finally got my hands on a Wigram’s Englishman’s Greek Concordance, I went to those verses in John, and lo and behold, there was a fifth entry for that Greek word ‘parakleetos‘. I pray you will find that verse as instructive as it was to me.

Here it is:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: parakleetos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

There it was all along! Now everything Christ had told his disciples became clear. Christ is not the holy spirit, and the holy spirit is not a person. The holy spirit is “the holy spirit of God” (Eph 4:30). The holy spirit “proceeds out from the Father” (Joh 15:26), and by it and through it, Christ is our comforter and our advocate, and by it He is “dwelling within” us and is thereby our “hope of glory”.

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Paul was using the right words, and he agrees with Christ:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Your brother in Christ, who is also in me, and He and I are in His one Father who is also “one… in us”.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Mike

Good afternoon,

Concerning the JFB commentary you cite on this verse, there is another source that is of greater weight in support of the 1Jn 5:7 verse and that is Cyprian in his first treatise, Unity of the Church, article 6:

“6. … He who breaks the peace and the concord of Christ, does so in opposition to Christ; he who gathereth elsewhere than in the Church, scatters the Church of Christ. The Lord says, “I and the Father are one;” and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, “And these three are one.” And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God’s law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation. (from Ante- Nicene Fathers, Volume 5, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright© 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)”

We know that he lived during the late second and early third centuries (200-258). Taking this into consideration it begs the question why he would quote such a verse if it were not handed down to him from first or second century witnesses. We know also that he studied under Tertullian who was born in 160 and converted between 190 and 200.

We also know “The precise year it is impossible to determine; but it was probably written before the destruction of Jerusalem; and perhaps about the year 68 or 69 A. D., though some think not before 80 A. D.”  (from Adam Clarke’s Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright© 1996, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

Again this is not that far removed from the dates of Tertullian’s or Cyprian’s writings.

Barne’s notes commentary:

“I. It is missing in all the earlier Greek manuscripts, for it is found in NO Greek manuscript written before the 16 th century. Indeed, it is found in only two Greek manuscripts of any age- one the Codex Montfortianus, or Britannicus, written in the beginning of the sixteenth century, and the other the Codex Ravianus, which is a mere transcript of the text, taken partly from the third edition of Stephen’s New Testament, and partly from the Complutensian Polyglott. But it is incredible that a genuine passage of the New Testament should be missing in ALL the early Greek manuscripts.

II. It is missing in the earliest versions, and, indeed, in a large part of the versions of the New Testament which have been made in all former times. It is wanting in both the Syriac versions – one of which was made probably in the first century; in the Coptic, Armenian, Slavonic, Ethiopic, and Arabic.  (from Barnes’ Notes, Electronic Database Copyright© 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)”

It is interesting to me that in this commentary, as well as the JFB, there is no mention of Cyprian quoting this passage in dispute even though it occurred in the late second or early third century. This again begs the question that even though it may be wanting in many MSS, why was a third century writer quoting it? I realize there is no way to verify this, but his statement suggests that it is reasonable to believe that before the 2nd century the trinity was being taught. Now obviously one can assume that this would have been heresy, but then there is nothing in history to suggest that Cyprian was seen as a heretic.

What are your thoughts? I go back and forth on the entire subject of a triune God, and to be honest the statement by Cyprian is rather convincing evidence pointing to an early teaching on the trinity at least at the end of the first century which is not that far removed from the writings of John.

R____,

PS. I have enjoyed the teachings I have read on your site.

Hi R____,

Thank you for pointing this out. It is a quote of which I was unaware.

Nevertheless, “the sum of [ God’s] word” demonstrates that the “Godhead” is to be “understood by the things that are made”.

Psa 119:160 The sum of thy word is truth; And every one of thy righteous ordinances endureth for ever. (ASV)

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

We are not left to guess which “things that are made” reveal to us who is “the head of Christ”. We are told who is the “head” of whom in the “Godhead”:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God [“the Father” 1Co 8:6].

Right there in 1Co 11:3, as throughout the New Testament, only Christ and His Father are mentioned, and what the scriptures call “the holy spirit of God” is not mentioned, simply because it was never even considered to be a personality. Notice how the scriptures demonstrate the apostles used that phrase “the holy spirit”, or in the Greek “the hagios pneuma”:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It is not Christ who IS the holy spirit. Rather what the scriptures do reveal is that God has given “all things that [He] has” to Christ, and Christ in turn is now empowered to give His Father’s spirit to a select few, and by “the holy spirit of God”, Christ can now dwell in all those who are given to Him of His Father.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Again, notice there is no mention of the holy spirit as a person when our Lord refers to His “head”:

Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine [ including the Father’s “hagios pneuma”]: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So what are we to make of that very early reference to 1Jn 5:7 by Cyprian in the late second and early third century? Here is what that indicates:

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

So the apostates who would lead the church into apostasy are clearly shown to have been right there among the very “elders of Ephesus” and in “all they in Asia”, before the apostles died and while they were yet ministering to the churches. Consider these verses of scripture:

2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

“Asia” is where Paul spent the bulk of his time, and where he received the bulk of his persecution. It happens to be the same area which as a type of the entire Babylonian, orthodox Christian church, the book of Revelation is addressed:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

The apostle Peter knew what was taking place in the church, and it provoked him to write this to the same people who were “wrest[ ing]” the words of the apostle Paul before the apostles had even died, much less “the late second and early third centuries” when Cyprian was quoting those who had already “wrested” the Word of God concerning what is the nature of the “Godhead”:

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

John wrote the book of Revelation to the very people who had him put on the Isle of Patmos, and this is what he reveals about those people and what was already done in the church before he was ever sent to Patmos:

3Jn 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
3Jn 1:10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

Diotrephes could not cast out those John had sent to the church if the church had not been behind Diotrephes.

“All they which are in Asia” had forsaken Paul. Peter tells us that those in the churches he was addressing were “wresting… the… scriptures”, and John tells us that he was not received by the church, and those he sent were “cast out of the church”. So the apostasy of the church was an accomplished fact before the apostles were even dead. How much more apostatized, wrested and corrupted had the church become by the time of Cyprian who “lived in the late second and early third centuries”? Old manuscripts do not equate to uncorrupted manuscripts. The fact is that the oldest manuscripts are some of the most corrupt. A much better and more Biblical way of deciding which manuscripts are most reliable is to go to “the sum of thy Word”, and when we use that method, we must most definitely confess that Mat 28:19 is not in the majority of the manuscripts, and neither Isa 1Jn 5:7.

For in depth proof of those statements read these links:

Can A Lie In The Translation Be Weeded Out?

Spurious Verses In KJV

So again I want to thank you for bringing this early quote from Cyprian to my attention. I hope you will continue to “enjoy what you are reading on [the] site”, and I hope that after reading all of this with a desire only to know the Truth, that you will understand why I am not surprised to find that “before the 2nd century the trinity was being taught”. Neither am I the least bit surprised to discover that Cyprian was quoting an already corrupted text as early as “the late second and the beginning of the third century”. The church had, in the words of the scriptures themselves “all… forsaken, wrested the scriptures, and cast out of the church” those who were faithful to the apostles teachings over a century earlier.

Your brother in Christ,

Mike

Hi Mike,

I read your document and found it very compelling, but have a question as to what you believe the nature of Jesus Christ is. Do you believe in the dual nature, and so believe that Jesus is God? I have recently come out of the belief in the trinity, and have some thoughts on this, but would be very interested in hearing what you believe. Thank you in advance for your time.

J____

Hi J____,
Thank you for your question.
You ask:

I… have a question as to what you believe the nature of Jesus Christ is. Do you believe in the dual nature, and so believe that Jesus is God?

I am not certain what “dual nature” means, but to answer your question directly, yes, Jesus is God, as He said:

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

So yes, Christ did have a “dual nature”, in the same sense that we all have a dual nature when once we are “sealed with the holy spirit of promise”, and we too take on the “divine nature”.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

But the difference between Christ, who never sinned, and us, who do sin, is that Christ was not given the spirit “by measure” whereas we are all given a “measure of faith”.

Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Christ doesn’t claim to be God the Father, from whom He came.

1Co 8:6 But to us [ and to me] there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and [ besides the “one God” there is also] one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Christ said, “If He called them gods… say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?”
Before Christ came into this realm of death, we are told in Joh 10:36, that His Father “sanctified and sent” Him here, and since we are also told…

Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

… it is therefore clear that even before Christ came to this earth, His Father was “greater than [ He].”

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

This explains why Christ’s defense for claiming to be God’s son was ‘Ye are [ also] ‘gods’, so why are you upset with me for saying that I too, am a son of God?’
Notice He says in Joh 10:30, “I and my Father are one”. If indeed there were a third person of equal rank in the Godhead, Christ just gave him a slap in the face by totally ignoring him. But of course such is not the case. There is not one word of scripture to establish the holy spirit as a separate individual in the Godhead. The use of the pronoun “he’ is no more reason to say there is therefore a third person than Christ saying His words “are spirit”.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Does the fact that Christ’s words “are spirit” make them a separate person from Christ? What an absurd thought! But it is no more absurd than calling “the holy spirit of God” a separate person, simply because Christ personifies that spirit with the pronoun ‘he’ while explaining to His disciple how He, Christ, will be with and in them all after His death and resurrection.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

“My Father… ye… and ye in Me”. No mention of another part of the god head. Again, Christ Himself denies such a doctrine:

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The trinitarians argue this was true only while Christ was in the flesh. But as we noted above, it was the Father who “sanctified” and “sent” Christ, before He was in the flesh. Besides all of that, the scriptures reveal that the holy spirit is simply “the holy spirit of God”.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

The scriptures also reveal that even now God the Father is “the head of Christ”, and Christ is not “co- equal” with His Father.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Joh 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Joh 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So the “comforter… spirit of Truth” is the Father’s spirit which He has given to Christ to give to “reveal… the Father… to whom the Son will reveal Him”.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Father and Son, but where is the holy spirit? Well, again, here he is:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That is where and what “the holy spirit” is. It is “the holy spirit of God”. But notice that the word ‘holy’ is not capitalized by the King James translators simply because they are blinded by their false trinitarian doctrine, and to capitalize the word ‘holy’ here would reveal their false doctrine.
So is Christ now equal with His Father, now that He is no longer in the flesh? Absolutely not. Many years after Christ’s death and resurrection we are told this about Christ’s relationship to His Father, now that He is back in a body of spirit:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Christ’s head is God, His Father. God is not Christ’s Father simply because Christ came in the flesh. The Father is said to be “the Father of spirits”:

Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto t he Father of spirits, and live?

So Christ was “of… the… one God, the Father… the Father of spirits”, before He ever came into this dying realm of the flesh. That is why He tells us plainly that He is “the beginning of the creation of God [ His Father]:”

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Let’s get it all together and see what we have:
Christ was “sanctified… and sent” of His Father.

Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

He tells us “My Father is greater than I”…

Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

… and He tells us He is “the beginning of the creation of God”:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Add to all those Truths the fact that He “subjects” Himself to His Father at the end of the ages:

1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That years after His resurrection from the dead, we are told that “the head of Christ is God”:

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

That the holy spirit is said to be “the holy spirit of God”:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Then we, with Christ, must agree that He is “the son of God” in the very same manner that “Ye are gods”.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 In conclusion we must also agree with the apostle Paul that:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and [ besides that “one God, the Father, of whom are all things” there is also] one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The word ‘by’ in that verse is the Greek word ‘dia’, and it means ‘through’ Him, through Christ.
I hope all these verses of scripture serve to make clear how the scriptures reveal the godhead to us. They reveal that Christ was “the beginning of the creation of God”, “the image of the invisible God”, created by His Father, who we are told is “the Father of spirits”, and that then “in… by… [ and] through Christ” all the rest “of the creation of God” came into being and “consists… in [ Christ]”:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

“It please the Father”. If indeed there were a “third and equal” member of the godhead, both Christ and His apostles missed every opportunity to reveal that to us. But this all just serves to reveal clearly that there is no such thing as a trinity, and it also reveals clearly that Christ is the “image of the invisible God”, and no “image” is the actual thing it portrays.
Your brother in His service,
Mike

Hi Mike,
For the past three days I have been relentlessly pursuing the truth about the Trinity. I want to know the truth even if it’s the opposite of what I’ve always believed. There is a couple of places that “hang me up”. I was wondering if you could help me answer a few things.
First of all, what Bible is closest to the Greek manuscripts? I’m so tired of learning all the things that have been added and taken out of my Bible. Why can’t I just have a Bible from someone who has no preconceived views? UGH!
Next: Here are the scriptures that stop me from completely throwing out the Trinity view. Joh 1:3 through him all things were made & Heb 1:2 …by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe – Gen 1 In the beginning God created… So if God created all these things but the first two scriptures say Jesus created these things, it leaves me confused again. I just want the truth.
Last but not least, I do not know where you got this below—THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. That’s not what I read. And I don’t follow your point you are trying to make. The rest of the site is very informative.

Now let’s allow the risen Christ Himself to reveal to us His relationship to His Father. After all, it is He, not John, who is the revelator. Notice Rev 3:14 – And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD:
There it is! Christ Himself is calling Himself “the beginning of the creation of God.”

Thank you,
L____

Hi L____,
Thank you for writing us.
To answer your first question, there is no perfect translation. God is not in the business, at this time, of saving all of mankind. When He does set His hand to do that, He will get it done. But for now He is in the business of blinding those who see:

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

One of the ways He is doing that is by giving us many translations with many mistakes. Translating the word ‘aion’ into ‘eternal, eternity, for ever and ever” etc. is but one such example. So do what I do. Download e- sword and look at the entry of every Greek word in question or every Hebrew word in question. When you do that, then the holy spirit will give you the meaning that was intended. There are no translations that can be trusted completely.
Now here is your first question concerning the trinity:

Next: Here are the scriptures that stop me from completely throwing out the Trinity view. Joh 1:3 through him all things were made & Heb 1:2 …by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe – Gen 1 In the beginning God created… So if God created all these things but the first two scriptures say Jesus created these things, it leaves me confused again. I just want the truth.

This one is easy because the scriptures reveal that Christ was given the name of “God”.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Who is the one giving Christ these incredible names?

Col 1:19 For it pleased [ the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;

No mention of a third person called ‘the holy ghost’. Here is what the Bible teaches concerning the invisible God head:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

This is not speaking of the three parts of an egg, the three forms of water, or the three sexes we hear of today. Here is “the things that are made” referred to in scripture which specifically concern the “Godhead”

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [ is] the man; and the head of Christ is God.

“The head of Christ is God”. Now here is what we are told about that “God” and who He is in relationship to our Lord.

1Co 8:6 But to us [ there is but] one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and [ besides this “one God” there is also] one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

So the holy spirit is the spirit of “the Father, of whom are all things…” That is how Christ was conceived of His mother “of the holy spirit”.

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Now you are going to have to get back with me on your second question. Here it is:

Last but not least, I do not know where you got this below—THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD. That’s not what I read. And I don’t follow your point you are trying tomake. The rest of the site is very informative.

Now let’s allow the risen Christ Himself to reveal to us His relationship to His Father. After all, it is He, not John, who is the revelator. Notice Rev 3:14 – And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD:
There it is! Christ Himself is calling Himself “the beginning of the creation of God.”

That is what it says. Here is the verse that says just that. I try never to say anything without the scripture to support every word.

Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The point is that if “There is but one God, the Father, and all things of HIm”, then Christ must be the very first thing the Father created, and by Christ, calling Christ “the mighty God, the everlasting Father” Christ’s Father created the rest of creation.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [ they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

We were told in 1Co 8:6, that all things were “of the Father” and “by Christ”. Here we are being told the same thing, adding the fact that Christ is “the image of the invisible God”.
Why is this so? Is it because Christ is “co equal with God”? Absolutely not! There is only one reason Christ is all these things, and here is that reason, according to scripture:

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

I hope this all make this verse crystal clear to you.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

You are in my prayers. I pray you are given to place the Word of God above what men say about that Word.
Your brother in Christ,
Mike