Mike,

I have been carefully reading your article “Is God A Trinity?” Your argument directly from scripture lets Jesus speak for Himself. In spite of the fact that Christ was created by the Father, my question is: Is Christ as a deity to be worshiped?

Thanks,
B____

Hi B____,

Thank you for your question.
The answer is yes, Christ is to be worshiped, and He permitted people to worship Him.

Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

We “worship Him” as our head, yet recognizing the Truth which He testifies to us that He also has a head, which is God the Father.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

What does this tell us about Christ’s relationship with His Father?

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Is Christ God? Certainly! We just read where He permitted Himself to be worshiped. Yet we see Him telling us His Father is greater than He is. There can be but one supreme being. There are not two or more supremacies.
So Christ has a head whom He worships and to whom He submits Himself.

1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

But the Father has decreed that the only way to worship Him is through His Son in whom He has placed the fulness of the Godhead.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

So just as Christ is the image of His Father and worships His Father, so too, we are commanded to become the image of His son and to worship our Father, Christ, “because it pleases the Father” to do so.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

“As He is, so are we” but not to the extent of having the power of the throne.

Gen 41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.
1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

So we cannot even come to the throne of God the Father without coming through the Father’s anointed, His Christ.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I pray these verses of scripture are sufficient to demonstrate to you that Christ permitted and even encouraged others to worship Him.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Your brother who worships his Head whom the Father has sent.
Mike

Hi Mike,

If you have the time, I would appreciate it if you take a look at this video I saw on You tube. According to this man, everything made is spiritual. At times he sounds very convincing, but at others, well, it just doesn’t seem completely scriptural. Please let me know what you think.

D____

Hi D____,

Thank you for taking the time to send the Rob Bell links to me. The scientific content was very informative, but the conclusions Rob Bell draws from the fact that “the things that are seen are made of things that do not appear” is completely void of any scriptural or spiritual truth.
Rob Bell would fit right in with the doctrines of turning grace into lasciviousness heresies.
I listened to two of Bell’s videos and another one entitled Robert Bell Is A Heretic. They are at opposite ends of the same heretical pendulum. One argues that Christ did it all on the cross and mentions nothing about what Christ is doing in us, and the other argues that you must choose whether you will be saved or not, and if you choose to sin, then you will burn in hell for all eternity.
Neither wants to hear that “grace chastens us to forsake ungodliness and worldly lusts.” Bell’s statistics reveal the depth of God’s intelligence but have absolutely no spiritual Biblical understanding. He actually believes that “everything is spiritual” and has apparently no use for these words of God:

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Being made of “things that do not appear” does not, scripturally, make one spiritual. If you take Rob Bell’s words at face value then you would have to agree with him that “everything is spiritual.” Such so- called ‘logic’ would nullify any significance in these words which were inspired by the holy spirit:

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [ was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

According to Rob Bell’s reasonings, since the earth was created by God from His “things that do not appear”, therefore “everything is spiritual.” Rob Bell has bought into the serpent’s lie which says “You will not surely die, because you are an immortal spirit”, and denies God’s declaration “dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return.” It all amounts to the same argument that the serpent proffered, that we are really spirits having an earthly experience, while God declares that we are dust coming to a spiritual experience and a spiritual existence, by means of a resurrection from among the dead. Such doctrine is abhorred by the natural man who wants to believe that he cannot really ever be dead.
Of course the Truth will never be given such a large audience. That truth being that God Himself has given man an evil experience to humble him and to bring man into judgment with the unavoidable end being the salvation of all “through death.”

Joh 12:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Contrary to the doctrine of Mr. Bell, we are not yet spiritual bodies, even if we have been given the down payment of God’s spirit while in these “marred vessels of clay.” While we “die daily” in a spiritual sense, we also must go through a second veil and lay down this physical body before we can “inherit the kingdom of God in a spiritual body.
As little as Rob Bell wants to mention it, there will be a symbolic fiery judgment which will symbolically burn out all of the wood, hay and stubble in the minds of all men of all time.

1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13  Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

These “fiery trials” are the judgment which is “now on the house of God.”

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Rob Bell’s omission of judgment is just as egregious as the teachers of eternal torment. Both keep the truth of the means of salvation from being heard and understood. That truth is the chastening grace of God which the death of Christ and His subsequent resurrection, to now live his life of rejection and trials and tribulations in us, has provided.

1Co 3:13  Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.

God will judge and “burn out” all heresies in us all, and that certainly includes this heresy that omits the doctrine of fiery judgment upon “every man.” Rob Bell and all Gnostics would do well to preach and teach this very scriptural truth which is found throughout all of God’s Word from Genesis to Revelation:

Gal 6:7  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

The fact that our sins are forgiven does not change the fact that we will all receive and reap what we have sown.

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Rob Bell’s doctrine is nothing more or less than modern Gnosticism. It opposes the doctrine of eternal hell but not on a scriptural basis. I hope this is of some help in seeing through these two heresies which have “deceived the whole world.” It is “few” indeed who can acknowledge these verses as true:

1Jn 5:19  And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

But Christ really is “the propitiation, not only for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world,” and neither of these heresies can do any more than what has been ordained for them in God’s “book.”

Psa 139:16  Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.
1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

In that we can all take great comfort.
Your brother in Christ,
Mike

Hi Mike,

It’s been awhile since I last wrote to you. My panic attacks and depression have been almost gone completely for a while now it seems. Thanks for your continued prayers and support.

I’ve been reading a lot on the IWWB site and was starting at the beginning of your Revelation notes when a verse that I had read before struck me again. I’m sure you’ve read it before, but I thought I’d ask what you think about my assumption here.

Here is the verse:

Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs [Gk: Paroimia]: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs [Gk: Paroimia], but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

The verse that jumped out at me – aside from your notes on the Paroimia – was the latter verse, Matthew 13:13:

Mat 13:13 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

If it is saying what I think it is saying, then when we have the “mind of Christ,” and “keep the sayings of the book,” and “are his disciples indeed” we shall ask “IN HIS NAME,” and that doesn’t mean adding “in Jesus’ name I pray” to the end of our prayer, or praying to him so we can get to the father so that “he prays the Father for us.”

Rather, to me, it is when the fullness of Col 1:27 has sunk in (or has been “burned” in), and we are called sons, to where like the Galatians received Paul “even as Jesus Christ” (Gal 4:14), so will we be received. And we will ask the Father “IN HIS NAME,” and I don’t mean that he will pray the Father for us. For as sons we consider it not robbery to be called the son of God, right? Just like Jesus didn’t consider it thus? For if He is in us and we have his mind? If indeed he is in us and we have his mind..

Just some thoughts. Thanks for all you do, and keep me in your prayers.

J____

Wow, what an incredible spiritual insight!

You have been given by the spirit, the understanding of the Biblical doctrine of who is “the Christ.” Let’s look at these three verses together.

Joh 16:25  These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Joh 16:26  At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27  For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

The reason Christ gives for “saying not that I will pray for you” is that “the Father Himself loves you because you loved me and believe that I came out from God.”

What I especially appreciate is that the holy spirit has given you the ability to apply Philippians 2:6 to this statement of Christ.

Php 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Christ has gone to great lengths to let us know that we are just as He is in this world. He was rejected, hated, despised and killed, just as we are, and just as we are to reckon ourselves.

1Jn 4:17  Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18  There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The flesh recoils at the thought of being rejected, hated and despised by this world. However, the spirit rejoices when it realizes that “as He is, so are we” means that the Father loves us just as He loves Christ, and the Father actually sees us just as He sees Christ Himself. These are not empty words. These words have consequences which are a matter of life and death in the realm of the spirit.

Mat 25:31  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye h ave done it unto me.
Mat 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

When we “think it not robbery” to see ourselves as “equal with Christ,” we are not becoming our own head any more than Christ became His own head when He “thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” My wife is my equal because we consider ourselves to be one, not because she considers herself to be my head. So it is with any healthy body.

1Co 12:12  For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is [ Greek, the] Christ.
1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14  For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15  If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16  And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17  If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18  But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19  And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20  But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22  Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23  And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24  For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that [ part] which lacked:
1Co 12:25  That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26  And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Now look at verse 12 in all these literal translations.

(CLV) For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, thus also is the Christ.

(Darby)  For even as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of the body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ. 

(EDT) Just as for the body one is, and members has many, all but the members of the body of the one, many being, one is body; thus also the Anointed.

(REV) For, just as, the body, is one, and yet hath many members, but, all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so, also, the Christ;

(YLT)  For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ,

It is not robbery for Christ to consider Himself equal with God because, like Eve from Adam, He came out from God. It is not robbery for us to consider ourselves equal with Christ, because like Christ from the Father, we have come out from Christ, and Christ is our Father, and “as He is, so are we in this world.”

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We are His body, and He is our head and “as He is so are we…” That is what Christ meant when He said, “and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”

If ever the depth of these words, and the blessing of knowing the Truth they are, sinks into our spirit, then all the suffering we endure in this world becomes a reason for rejoicing that we are counted worthy to suffer with Him and to “fill up what is lacking in the sufferings of the Christ.”

(YLT)  Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and do fill up the things lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh for his body, which is the assembly

(REV) Col 1:24 Now, am I rejoicing in the sufferings on your behalf, and am filling up the things that lack of the tribulations of the Christ, in my flesh, in behalf of his body, which is the assembly,

(EDT) Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in the sufferings on behalf of you, and I fill up the wants of the afflictions of the Anointed one in the flesh of me on behalf of the body of him, which is the congregation;

“My sufferings [are] for you… His body.” We suffer for “the body of the Christ,” of which body “we are members in particular.”

That verse “He cannot deny Himself” becomes much more meaningful when we see why Christ says ” I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”

2Ti 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13  If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

If we deny Christ, He will deny us before His Father. If we do not believe in Him, it will be because we never knew Christ, and He never knew us.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He is faithful and cannot deny Himself, and the day will come when all men will be given the faith to believe.

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So that is what I think about your ‘assumption here’. God bless you for sharing this with me. As the depth of this truth sinks into your spirit, your depression and panic attacks should be completely gone. You are in very good hands for this very reason.

Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Your brother in Christ,
Mike

Hi Mike,

How does the Spirit of Christ in the prophets relate to the Comforter? 

1Pe 1:10  Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
1Pe 1:11  searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

This aspect of the Spirit of Christ does not function as the Comforter; correct?  The choice of words here confuses me a bit considering:

Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not arisen a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is but little in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I recall mostly reading that the Spirit in the time before Christ was either UPON men used of God or WITH them.  The Spirit of Christ being in them (prophets of old) feels a little inconsistent so what is it that I’m missing?  Do I need to be considering that there are different aspects of the ONE SPIRIT?  Is the Spirit of Christ that was in the prophets simply the Word?

Jer 20:7  O Jehovah, thou hast persuaded me, and I was persuaded; thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am become a laughing- stock all the day, every one mocketh me.
Jer 20:8  For as often as I speak, I cry out; I cry, Violence and destruction! because the word of Jehovah is made a reproach unto me, and a derision, all the day.
Jer 20:9  And if I say, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name, then there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I am weary with forbearing, and I cannot contain.

D____

Hi D____,
Thanks for your question.
You ask:

“How does the Spirit of Christ in the prophets relate to the Comforter? … I recall mostly reading that the Spirit in the time before Christ was either UPON men used of God or WITH them.  The Spirit of Christ being in them (prophets of old) feels a little inconsistant so what is it that I’m missing?  Do I need to be considering that there are different aspects of the ONE SPIRIT?  Is the Spirit of Christ that was in the Prophets simply the Word?”
That is exactly right. Christ tells us in Joh 6:63, that His words “are spirit,” and as you point out below, Jeremiah tells us that God’s word was “in him as fire.

Jer 20:9  Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But [ his word] was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not [ stay].

Jer 23:29  Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [ that] breaketh the rock in pieces?

What helps most to understand how the “one God” of the Old Testament can include Christ is to understand how the word ‘one’ is to be understood in scripture. Look for example at this verse:

Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Joh 17:22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

How are Christ and His Father one? They are ‘one’ as a husband and wife are ‘one flesh.’

Mat 19:5  And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

The “one spirit” comes “through Him,” through Christ. I explain this thoroughly in Is There A Trinity? God’s Word was in David’s mouth and in Jeremiah’s mouth and in the mouths of all of the Old Testament patriarchs and prophets, but it was not in their hearts in the sense that it was there to change their hearts. Christ Himself tells us that could not be done until He had come to this earth in the flesh and then left this “body of sinful flesh and blood.”

Joh 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

Christ is not the holy spirit! But the holy spirit is Christ’s to give to whomsoever He will. The holy spirit is God’s spirit:

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Mat 11:27  All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [ he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [ him].

But I think you know all of that. Your question seems to be, How can Christ be ‘in’ the Old Testament prophets and yet not be there in a way that would convert their hearts? And you have answered your own question, it was in their minds and in their mouths, but it could not be there for the purpose of changing their hearts simply because Christ had not yet come in the flesh and made His “expedient” exit from the flesh so as to send the “comforter which is the holy spirit.”
I am sending you a list of letters, which I have cut and pasted from Dave Rogers’ TOA. Every letter in this list contains 1Pe 1:11. Please read the one entitled Christ Is Yahweh, The God of The Old Testament. I think that will help you to understand how Christ was in the Old Testament prophets but not in such a way as to convert their hearts.
If you still have a question after reading this letter and the one entitled Christ Is Yahweh, please feel free to get back to me.
Your brother in Christ,
Mike
Letters containing 1Pe 1:11
1Pe 1:11  A238.0    Ears That Hear and Eyes That See a Pentecostal Spirit
1Pe 1:11  A323.0    Christ’s Glory
1Pe 1:11  A325.0    Christ Is Yahweh The God Of The Old Testament
1Pe 1:11  A466.0    Is Satan Evil? Does Satan Know What We Know?
1Pe 1:11  A469.0    Is The Bible The Only Word Of God?
1Pe 1:11  A738.0    What Are The Mysteries Of The Kingdom Of Heaven?
1Pe 1:11  A775.0    What The Camp, The Court, And The Tabernacle Of Israel Foreshadow
1Pe 1:11  A828.0    Who Can Women Teach?

Hi Mike,
I just wanted to share a revelation I got from scripture that really connected some dots for me. You probably already realize the things I am saying, but it’s still good to share just to testify about the goodness of God.  
One thing that confuses most people, and confused me for quite a while was the cross. I mean, what happened there? If Jesus died on the cross for all sinful people, why is there this mandate to forsake sin? Why is that necessary? Those are the questions I asked myself, sometimes even after the Lord showed me the truth that all people would be saved by his grace. There is a sect of believers, like the Concordant church, who say that because Christ died on the cross everyone is already righteous no matter what, even if they rape and murder. Yet how clear the scripture is when it says that only those who do righteousness are righteous, even as God in Heaven is the same. Things became clearer to me when the meaning in this became clearer:

Rom 8:3-4  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

WOW! What I realized here was that Paul is saying that God made his son Jesus into a type and shadow of something. Jesus was in the likeness of sinful flesh, just as the slain sheep of the Old Testament were likenesses of Jesus. Yet the Son, in reality, knew no sin at all. He resembled us, without being like us, just like the Old Testament shadows resembled Jesus, without being like Him. So if Jesus was in the likeness of sinful flesh, what is the old wooden cross of 2000 years ago? It is the likeness of how the sinful flesh dies… through self sacrifice. The cross is an indication to the world of how Jesus would put down sin within the Sons of God, as their sinful flesh is put down when the Spirit is put within them crying “Abba, Father!” that he may do good through them. And I realized that nothing physical can save us. Only the Spirit can save us from this wicked generation, these sinful ages, and that physical cross is an indication of how the spirit would put down sin in us. That is when the dots began to connect:

Rom 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so (ie, in that same likeness) we also should walk in newness of life (in actuality).

On the cross Jesus died to the sinful flesh, but in likeness. When he is in us, we die to our sinful flesh because the sacrifice of the cross is within us. I realized that Jesus did not die so that nobody else would have to die. He died so that the world could die with him, and then find the same life. That is when this finally made sense:

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

In the scripture we are told that whoever God loves, he chastises (Heb 12:11). I had wondered why chastisement is necessary, if God supposedly is blind to our sin. The church teaches that the Lamb’s blood covers our sin, so that God sees us as righteous even if we are not. But that would eliminate any need for God to chastise those he loves. Then I realized that God’s chastisement is not a form of counting our sin against us, but in working the sacrifice of the cross through us. And that is how the Lamb takes away the sin of the world, not by pretending it does not exist, but by placing his Spirit in us so that instead of sinning, we are doing good. God bless you, S____

Hi S____,
You are right on target when you say:
“When he is in us, we die to our sinful flesh because the sacrifice of the cross is within us. I realized that Jesus did not die so that nobody else would have to die. He died so that the world could die with him, and then find the same life.”
The doctrine of ‘substitutionary death’ has robbed the whole orthodox Christian church from any understanding of “that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ.”

Col 1:24  Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

The mere suggestion that there is anything “behind of the afflictions of Christ” sounds completely blasphemous to the orthodox Christian church. It sounds like one is saying that Christ’s sacrifice is not sufficient to cover the sins of the world. That, of course, is not what I or the holy spirit through the pen of the apostle Paul are saying.
Here is what that verse actually says:

Col 1:24 Now, am I rejoicing in the sufferings on your behalf, and am filling up the things that lack of the tribulations of the Christ, in my flesh, in behalf of his body, which is the assembly, (REV)

Do you see that little article ‘the’ which precedes the word ‘Christ?’ That little article ‘the’ really belongs there. It is in the Greek manuscripts, but many translations, including many which claim to be literal and concordant, leave out that article ‘the.’ They leave it out simply because they do not know anything about the doctrine of ‘the Christ.’ But the word ‘Christ’ simply and literally means anointed, and Christ has anointed those who He has sent to the world as His “christ.”

2Co 1:21  Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ [, Greek – Christos – the Anointed One – 5547] and hath anointed[ Greek – chrio – 5548] us, [ is] God;

So God has anointed us with our brothers in ‘the Christ.” What this verse says literally is that God has, in ‘Christos’, has ‘chrioed’ (annointed) us. The Words of Christ Himself agrees with this verse:

Joh 20:21  Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [ be] unto you: as [ my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Luk 22:29  And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

Now that is Christ’s doctrine of ‘the Christ.’ The article ‘the’ precedes the word ‘Christ’ in many instances where most, but not all, of the translations simply leave it off. They do not understand that Christ has a christ called “the Christ,” just as Christ Himself is called “the Christ.” Christ’s christ really is sent by Christ just “as my father hath sent me” and Christ’s christ really is appointed a kingdom just “as My Father hath appointed unto me.”
This Biblical similarity between Christ and His christ goes so far as to call Christ’s christ, “saviors.”

Neh 9:27  Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest [ them] from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.

Oba 1:21  And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD’S.

Such a doctrine is blasphemous to the entire orthodox Christian church which insists on keeping Christ separate from His Christ, as if Christ were too holy to identify with mere flesh and blood mankind.
Here are but a couple of the many verses which show us just how much Christ identifies with His creation:

2Co 5:14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
2Co 5:15 And [ that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [ him] no more.
2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man [ be] in Christ, [ he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18  And all things [ are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [ you] by us: we pray [ you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21  For he hath made him [ to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

There is the message of your e- mail: ” … he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them…”
But notice what we are told in verse 16:

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [ him] no more [ after the flesh].

Why are we told “henceforth know we [ him] no more [ after the flesh]?” Here is why we are told that we are not to “know Him… after the flesh:”

Heb 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

So here is where I must take exception with one sentence in your e- mail.
“He resembled us, without being like us, just like the Old Testament shadows resembled Jesus, without being like Him”.
As those Old Testament shadows portray, Christ, He was through us guilty of “being worthy of death and hanging on a tree.”

Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [ is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

This verse and Heb 2:14 cited above, tells us that “as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He Himself took part of the same [ flesh and blood].” If it had been any other type of flesh and blood Christ could not have identified with “the children” and His sacrifice would have not been for sins committed in ” the same… flesh and blood.”
In the sense that Christ was “without sin” He was unlike us. But in the sense that He “took part of the same… sinful… flesh and blood,” He was exactly like us.
Be sure you listen to and read the study notes concerning The Spiritual Significance of The Sin Offering, and The Spiritual Significance of The Trespass Offering on the web site. The Truths of Christ foreshadowed in the fact that the nation of ancient Israel was given both a sin offering for the fact that God had created mankind in a horribly “marred,” destroyed and dying condition, not because of anything Adam did, but simply because of the earthy composition with which the Creator has begun His creation; with “dust of the ground,” and not yet “conformed to the image of His [ spiritual] Son.” Christ came in “the same… flesh and blood… of the children.” That was the same “flesh and blood which cannot inherit the kingdom of God.” Not even the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ. Hence:

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [ him] no more.

This Truth is stated in the clearest terms only 4 verses later in this very same chapter. Let’s read the verses leading up to verse 21 to see why we are to “no longer know Him… after the flesh:”

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man [ be] in Christ, [ he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18  And all things [ are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [ you] by us: we pray [ you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21  For he hath made him [ to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

‘The words ‘to be’ are not in the Greek and are not inspired of God. Leave them out. “He made Him sin for us, who knew no sin…”
What are the “old things which have passed away?” Verse 16 has just told us that it is what we have “known” that has changed:

“… though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [ him] no more [ after the flesh].”

“Old things have passed away behold all things are become new” is speaking specifically of the things we once “knew” to be true. The Truth is that what Christ Himself once called the manna, “bread from heaven.” Even though “all things are of God” (verse 18) including the temporal shadows of the law of Moses, the body casting that shadow, the Christ who was not “after the flesh,” declares to us: “Moses gave you not that bread from heaven, but My Father gives you that true bread from heaven.”
Here are the words of Christ to Moses:

Exo 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

What now, are the “but I say unto you” words of the Christ of the “change also of the law… written not with ink…” New Testament”? They certainly are not the words He spoke unto Moses. They are rather the words of a reformer:

Joh 6:32  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Heb 9:10  [ Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them [ only] until the time of reformation

“Old things have passed away, behold all things have become new,” is just as true today for the doctrines of Babylon as they were true for the doctrines of Moses in the days when Christ was “known in the flesh” by His apostles. And one of those Babylonian doctrines which is accepted by the whole orthodox Christian world is that Christ’s flesh was not “the same… sinful flesh… as the children” (Heb. 2:14 and Rom. 8:3). But what say the scriptures on this subject?

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

All flesh, including the flesh of Christ, falls far short of the spiritual bodies God has waiting for all of His creation in it’s time and place. All flesh is “marred in the hand of the Potter before it ever draws its first breath:

Psa 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Why does not this verse say ‘my Father?” It is because Christ was on His Father’s side “conceived of the holy ghost.”

Mat 1:20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Christ was conceived of the holy ghost on His Father’s side, but He was, in His own Words, the “Son of Man” on His mother’s side. In Hebrew, the language of the Old Testament, the word ‘man’ is ‘adam’. It was being “made of a woman which gave Christ the right to claim to be “the Son Of Man”:

Gal 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Mat 8:20  And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air [ have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [ his] head.

“Of a woman… under the law” are both statements referring to “being made sin.” This is Gal 4:4, just a few verses from where we were just told that being under the law means that we are “under sin… shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed:”

Gal 3:22  But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23  But before faith came , we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [ to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Christ refers to Himself as “the Son of Man” 81 times, which is almost three times as often as He calls Himself the ‘son of God.’ The phrase ‘the Son Of God” appears but 28 times. Clearly Christ “is not ashamed to call them brothers.”

Heb 2:11  For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [ are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

But all of orthodox Christianity, all of Babylon, denies that Christ was “made sin” and had actually entered the realm of death by being “made of a woman, made under the law.” All of orthodox Christianity denies that David or Christ could possibly be “shapen in iniquity, and conceived in sin.” It is all “foolishness unto them” to proclaim that one can be “conceived in sin” before one is even given the opportunity to commit sin.” The reasoning of the carnal mind sees no difference between sin as a state of being, and trespass as sinful actions committed while in that “sinful flesh” state of being. Consequently they cannot understand why God gave Israel a sin offering for the “marred” condition in which His own hand had formed them, as well as a trespass offering for the sins committed in that marred and sinful condition. That is why Christ cannot be understood by Babylon as “made sin” in spite of the fact that that is exactly what the scriptures teach:

2Co 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we [ him] no more.
2Co 5:21  For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him .

Christ, because He was “conceived of the holy ghost from His mother’s womb, is the only person in history who has never sinned. Yet “He made Him sin, who knew no sin, that we, who all have sinned, might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
Here are your words S____:
What I realized here was that Paul is saying that God made his son Jesus into a type and shadow of something. Jesus was in the likeness of sinful flesh, just as the slain sheep of the Old Testament were likenesses of Jesus. Yet, the Son, in reality, knew no sin at all. He resembled us, without being like us, just like the Old Testament shadows resembled Jesus, without being like Him.
You are right that Christ’s body of flesh was but a type of His spiritual body, but I hope that, in light of the scriptures, you can now see that the typical body He was given was “the same… sinful flesh… as the children, and that in that “same flesh and blood… as the children… He was in all ways tempted as we are, yet without sin.” It is the fact that His body of flesh was but a shadow, that made it “the same as the children,” whose marred earthy bodies are also mere shadows of the heavenly bodies we are all to don on the day of the resurrection from among the dead. Those bodies can indeed materialize and be handled, and we will be able to say to those who will shake our hands:

Luk 24:39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

And yet we will “be as the wind:”

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I hope that you are able to see that Christ was not asking the rich young ruler to do something that He Himself had not already done.

Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

Christ had “taken up His cross” and was following His Father long before He was physically nailed to the cross.

Joh 8:28  Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [ he], and [ that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Christ knew that He was come into this world to die as the sacrifice for the sins of all mankind. As such, He counted Himself as being dead to this world and alive to His Father. Everything He asks of us is what He Himself has already done.

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [ in the likeness] of [ his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [ him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Christ “took up His cross by entering into the realm of death when he came into this world in a body of dying flesh, “made of a woman made under the law.” Conception of the holy ghost did nothing to save Christ’s flesh. Christ’s flesh, just as ours will be, was “changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye…” and “this earthy” body was replaced with the heavenly body, and “henceforth know we Him no more… after the flesh,” because “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.”

1Co 15:47  The first man [ is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [ is] the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48  As [ is] the earthy, such [ are] they also that are earthy: and as [ is] the heavenly, such [ are] they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

“The second man is the Lord from heaven” is a statement about “the Lord and His Christ.”

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Christ was “changed” from a body of “the same… flesh and blood… as the children” into a spiritual body capable of materializing when needed to show unbelieving disciples His grotesque wounds. But there is no mention of these wounds when we read of His appearance in Revelation one:

Rev 1:12  And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [ one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14  His head and [ his] hairs [ were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [ were] as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [ was] as the sun shineth in his strength.

I hope this helps you to see that Christ was ” the same… flesh and blood… as the children” who are his own brothers and sisters who also struggle against “the same… flesh and blood Christ struggled with “yet without sin,” and that you have not been led to believe that Christ was any less the son of Adam, the Son of Man, than are you and I. It was only His Father in Him that kept Him spotless and pure in His every action in spite of the fact that he too was “shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin.”
Christ, sweating great drops of blood while praying in the garden just prior to his crucifixion, was experiencing the same thing Paul was expressing with these words:

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of [ this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
2Co 5:3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4  For we that are in [ this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
2Co 5:5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing [ is] God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6  Therefore [ we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
2Co 5:8  We are confident, [ I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and [ not ‘is’] to be present with the Lord.

Read the study notes on the sin and the trespass offerings for an in depth treatment of this subject.
Mike

Hello Mike,

I was reading some of your email responses, and you were telling somebody, “Only then does He give us strength we did not have before though we sought it for many years and continued to blaspheme His name among the heathen, while we claim His name.”

This really hit home. I am that person right now in my life. This past summer, Christ began to draw me to Him in a far different path than I had ever experienced. For the first time in my life, I was living by the doctrine of Christ and no other doctrine. I had dominion over sin that I had struggled with for so long. Every day I had the power of Christ working in me and I didn’t live a single moment – rather, I was dying moment by moment. And the ironic thing is – these were very stressful months of my life, yet Christ gave me the ability to comfort others rather than whine about my own problems. It was a completely different life – a night and day change happened overnight and I thanked God every moment with singing.

Then something shifted – I sank into the deepest valley of my life – which I am still in. Rather than having dominion over sin, I feel I am worshiping sin. I have lost my love for the Truth. I have lost all happiness or contentedness. Death is a constant thought – I feel like I am going insane – deep depression that completely takes away all rationalism. My loneliness is kept hidden from my family, and I have no friends. I have become so ashamed of who I am that I can’t function in social settings. In my mind, I feel as if I am fully convinced that I am completely sin. In my mind, I have witnessed the beast within me, and yet I feel powerless to this beast. Because I am so convinced that I can do nothing, I do nothing. And here is my problem – my concern.

I have cried out to God in anger many times that he would keep me from spiritual rest for nearly six months now. I have cried out for understanding as to what God is doing. I desire change, and there is never change. I have gotten to the point where I see myself capable of far worse things. I have these thoughts and fears that I am turning into the kind of person we call our worst sinners in society. Do you understand? If this is God’s process of showing me how completely sinful I am, then that purpose is being achieved. So much so that I know I will never see myself the same again and that the only road left is Christ, I hope.

I don’t suppose I have any question. It was just important for me to share this. You talk many times on your website about the process of realizing our complete sinful nature. I just wanted to “submit” this as a testament to that process. I had no idea the depths of sin. Come to think of it, I can’t tell you how much it means to be able to write all of this to somebody. I come to your site and read your words, and they provide a wellspring in my heart – a moment of refreshment and Truth. The few times I have corresponded with you, I felt like I was speaking with a brother – one of the few people in this world that I could identify with. I feel like I am hearing your voice from afar, though.

N____

Good Morning N____,

I want you to know that I am and I will continue to be praying for you.

I think that you and I both know that what you are enduring at this time is not just a struggle with your flesh; it is rather nothing less than spiritual warfare. Here is what is right now taking place within you:

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven [in the mind and heart of you and me]; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.

The fact that “his tail drew a third part of the stars of heaven” tells us that this is a process you are enduring. The number three in God’s word signifies a process. We are not completed in a moment. Even after we are finally brought out of the wilderness and given strength to fight the giants in our land, we still must “endure to the end.” Even in the ‘land of promise’ we find that it is yet in down payment and not in the fullness of the inheritance. The struggles against “powers and principalities” actually intensify after we come out of the wilderness. The Lord is still showing us where we are. He knows where we are, but we must yet come to see ourselves as He sees us. “Dying daily” continues right up to the day we die. This is a process, and it takes time just to come to the point that sin does not have dominion over us. I know what you are going through. I too, thought that I had dominion over sin, long before that was so.

Rest assured, that day does come, and only then have we entered into His rest. Only then have we come to see deeply that nothing we do is of ourselves:

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

“Free from sin” is the power and dominion over sin. It is the power to say ‘no’ to Potiphar’s wife and to the captain of the prison, who only yesterday were your masters. But this, too, is a process.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Notice the comparison of this great red dragon with the beast which is in us all:

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Both have seven heads and ten horns. What this tells us is that we are completely (7) given to the desires of the flesh (10 – see the series of studies on Numbers in Scripture). Every one of our seven heads is given power to resist the law of Christ by our ten horns. But look at who, at this time, empowers our flesh:

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat [Greek: thronos, throne], and great authority.

So the truth of this verse is confirmed in us.

Eph 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

This struggle is within us all. This “spiritual wickedness” is in the heavens of you and me. It was all ordained from “before the foundation of the world.”

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

“The Christ” of Christ are all “in Him.” As such they partake of all of His sufferings:

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [ as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [ received] by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Col 1:24 Now, am I rejoicing in the sufferings on your behalf, and am filling up the things that lack of the tribulations of the Christ, in my flesh, in behalf of his body, which is the assembly,

Both Peter and Paul had, in their own way, denied Christ and had placed stripes upon Him. Both had an appreciation of what He had done for them. We, too, have denied our Lord, and we, too, must come to appreciate what He has done and is doing for us.

It was for us that “the things in the heavens themselves” had to be cleansed with better things then the blood of calves and goats:

Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves [the hearts and minds of His elect] with better sacrifices than these.

“In Him… For you!” Here is what He can and will do “in Him, and for you:”

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

I want you to remind yourself of the Truth of that verse all day every day. You really are a conqueror of your flesh and spirit “through Christ.” Any evil spirit which tries to convince you otherwise is a liar. I will close with Paul’s advice to us all after reminding us that we wrestle not with flesh and blood but with spiritual wickedness in our heavens:

Eph 6:13; Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

I am praying with and for you. “You can do all things through Christ.”

Mike

Hi Mike,

When the bible speaks of everyone in his own order – BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: a firstfruit Anointed; afterwards they that are Christ’s at His appearing, then… the End. It seems this Isa 3 separate events. 1. Christ the first, 2. Those that are in Christ, 3. The End. Where is the “everyone” in ‘everyone in his own order’? Everyone is not in the first event and everyone is not in the second event, and there is no other event, but — The End. I can imagine “the end” explained as bringing up the end as in the end of a procession or parade, but why not explain as such? It just says the End… Please Explain.

Thanks,

M____

Hi M____,

It is good to hear from you again. You are exactly right about the three- phase completion of God’s work. 1) Christ, the firstfruit, 2) They that are Christ’s at His coming, and 3) then comes the end.

Israel was given this outline in God’s yearly feasts.”Three times in the year shall all your males appear before me…” There were really seven different annual holy days but they were all within these “Three times in the year…” that Israel was commanded to observe. Those three times were first, the passover and the days of unleavened bread. This was when the “sheaf of the firstfruits,” the “wave sheaf of the barley harvest,” was offered. Barley matures long before the wheat. So Christ matured long before any who are also called “a kind of firstfruits.” In fact the very next feast is called “the feast of firstfruits,” but it was fifty days after the barley harvest. So it is also know as Pentecost meaning ‘count fifty.’ But Pentecost is “the feast of firstfruits” because the church was established on Pentecost, and the “few chosen,” the “elect” who are chosen out of that church, are “a kind of firstfruits.” They are called “firstfruits” because they are the instruments through which the fall harvest which follows closely behind the “Feast of Trumpets” and the “Day of Atonement will be enacted.” This great fall harvest is called “The feast of Tabernacles.”

But what very few know, and what even fewer believe, is that this great final harvest of souls is also called “ The Feast of Ingatherings.” It is the time when God “gathers in” “all in Adam.” This is not, in it’s final fulfillment, the kingdom era, known in prophecy as “the kingdom of God.” The 1000 year reign of Christ is about as much the final fulfillment of “The Feast of Ingatherings” as Christ’s appearance in the flesh was the final fulfillment of God’s Kingdom on this earth. Of course Christ’s coming in the flesh did establish the kingdom of God “within you.” But the “kingdom of God within you” is not the final fulfillment of that kingdom on this earth. Just as Christ had to come in an outward physical form before he could come “inwardly” “in spirit” in His Chosen, His elect, His firstfruit kingdom, so must the millennial kingdom, an outward physical subjugation of the nations of the entire world, precede the “inward,” the “in spirit” conversion of the nations of the entire world.

Here are some scriptures to substantiate all the statements made above:

Exo 23:14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.
Exo 23:15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)
Exo 23:16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in [ all] thy labours out of the field.
Exo 23:17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord GOD.
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Lev 23:12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

Though very few Christians are aware of it, Christ makes it plain that not one person was converted in His entire physical existence on this earth. Only days before his apprehension by the chief priests and elders of Israel, Christ said this to His chief apostle:

Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [ to have] you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

The same will be true of the untried and untested inhabitants of this earth during the millennium. Satan will be “in prison” unable to try and test those who live here at that time. Consequently, just as Christ’s physical presence on earth did not produce one single convert, neither will His physical presence during the millennium. Both Christ and His elect ‘body,’ though spirit, will appear as physical bodies during the 1000 year reign. This faithless period know as the millennium is typified by the lack of faith of every one of Christ’s disciples immediately after His resurrection. Thomas was not the exception. He was simply the last to see Christ in His physical body. So, just as His kingdom was shortly established within his saints upon His resurrection, so will it be in the rest of the world after their resurrection at the “great white throne judgment.”

In other words, the Truth is that God’s kingdom will only be established after the flesh of Christ is recognized as the veil which keeps us separated from God:

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Not one Christan in 100 is aware of this truth. The flesh simply cannot see “the things of the spirit.” Christ Himself tells us:

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Even the flesh of Christ was unfit to inherit the kingdom of God. According to Heb 10:19-20, it was the flesh of Christ that was keeping us from entering into the very presence of the Father:

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood [ even the flesh of Christ] cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Christ’s flesh did not see corruption because He was “given the spirit without measure” from His very birth. On top of that fact, His flesh was resurrected before it had time to decay away. Had it not been resurrected, Christ’s dead body would have decayed away into the dust from which it was taken, but it was resurrected and did not see corruption.

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The word ‘suffer’ is actually ‘given.’ It was not ‘given’ to Christ to see corruption, even though He lived in corruptible flesh. So God had to perform the miracle of resurrecting Christ’s body before it corrupted away into the dust. It was never given to Christ to see corruption.

But this is not true of anyone else. We have all seen corruption in both our spirits and in our bodies. But “the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls.”

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

The “end of our faith” is the beginning of our salvation. That word “end” there in 1Pe 1:9 is the exact same Greek word used by Paul in 1Co 15, that you are asking about:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end [ Gk.- telos – the end product, the result, the outcome], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

“The end” here is the beginning of salvation for the harvest in the “end of the year.” It is the “fall harvest,” it is the “feast of ingatherings” of “all [ who are] in Adam.” Here are the next two verses after the one you asked about:

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

As long as one person is dead, death has not yet been “destroyed.”

I hope this has answered your question as to what the word “end’ means.

Mike