Hi Mike, Something keeps nagging at me about the wives of the patriarchs. Sarah, Rebekah and Rachel were all barren until the Lord opened their wombs. I can’t help but think this has some spiritual application that I am missing. It must have something to do with the elect or the chosen, but I can’t quite get a grasp on it. If you have any thoughts on it I would welcome any direction on how to study this out. Thank you, D____

Hi D___,
Thank you for your question. You say:
“Something keeps nagging at me about the wives of the patriarchs. Sarah, Rebekah and Rachel were all barren until the Lord opened their wombs. I can’t help but think this has some spiritual application that I am missing. It must have something to do with the elect or the chosen, but I can’t quite get a grasp on it.
Well, this question itself indicates that God is in the process of opening your eyes to see and your ears to hear the things of the spirit. You are so right. All the wives of the Patriarch’s were barren for a very good spiritual reason. What happened to them, happened and was written for one reason:

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

So how are we being admonished when we read of all the wives of the three patriarchs being barren until they are older? The answer, as is usually the case, is that these wives of the patriarchs typify us.
What the world cannot see is that we are all the fruitful wife of the flesh, first. Then later, only after we have done all the flesh can do and we have demonstrated that the flesh cannot in and of itself, bring forth the manchild who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron, only then are we brought to see that it is only through Christ in us that we can now become the heir who is more than a servant:

Gal 4:1  Now I say, [ That] the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2  But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3  Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
Gal 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5  To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:6  And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Gal 4:7  Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Gal 4:8  Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Gal 4:9  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

There it is, we all “were children… in bondage.” But when the fullness of time was come, we became the sons of the freewoman and “received the adoption of sons.”
It is the previous verse to chapter 4:1 which talks of the sons of the qualifications of becoming “the seed of Abraham.

Gal 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [ to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Chris t.
Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29  And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

And it is at the end of chapter four that we are told that “When the fulness of time comes, we are no longer under bondage as we were to begin with. We are now ” the son of the freewoman.” It is here in Galatians four that we are shown that before we can be the son of the free woman, we must come to recognize ourselves as the son of the bondwoman, a child still under the bondage of the law, no better than a slave.
It is Galatians four which helps to open our eyes to what Christ meant when He said that we must live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, we must be the bond servant before we can become the son of the freewoman, we must be the tares, before God sends his angels to bind all the tares in us and burn them in us, so that the good grain, the word of God in the children of God, is all that remains. We must come to see that “we all were… children of God’s wrath, even as others.” We must come to see that we must “keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book,” not just the good sayings, but we must be careful “not to add to or take away from the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We live every word, even the plagues of God’s wrath, if we hope to be part of and in His temple.

Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Rev 1:3  Blessed [ is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Notice, “the time is at hand… I come quickly.” This is not a book about events 2,000 years hence. Here are the ‘is, was, and will be’ words of God on this subject:

Rev 15:8  And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Paul tells us that we are that temple:

1Co 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

But both Paul and the book of Revelation tell us that we will not be in that temple until after God’s wrath has been poured out upon our unfruitful unrighteousness and ungodliness and rebellion:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This is first true of God’s elect:

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Now suppose we think we can somehow avoid being “the children of wrath even as others,” what happens then? Here is God’s sober warning to all who subscribe to any of the many and varied versions of being raptured out of having to “live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God” (Mat 4:4, Luk 4:4).

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

There will be no one in the kingdom of God who has not first had the “unfruitful works of darkness” reproved and burned out of them:

Mat 13:22  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

This is Mat 13, which has two parables of a sower in it. What does Christ tell us of his parables in this chapter?

Mat 13:10  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

That is a very legitimate question. Why did Christ speak in parables? What are Christ’s parables all about? Here is Christ’s answer to both of those questions:

Mat 13:11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

That is right, Christ spoke in parables to keep the multitudes from “knowing the mysteries of the kingdom of God.” That is His own reason for speaking in parables. In verse 34 we are told this:

Mat 13:34  All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

And where was this “kingdom of God” the mysteries of which Christ is hiding from the multitudes? It is to come sometime in the future? No, all who think so will be sorely disappointed. I did not say that there was not a future time when “Our Lord and His Christ” would “rule the kingdoms of this world.” That will take place:

Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

What I did say, and what the scriptures teach, is that these sayings all “come quickly, shortly and soon.” So where then is this “kingdom of God” which is “at hand?” Both John the Baptist and Christ said “the kingdom of God is “at hand.”

Mat 3:1  In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
Mat 3:2  And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

And we too, are to teach the same:

Mat 10:7  And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

How can that be? How is it that the kingdom of heaven is at hand? There are two reasons why the kingdom of heaven, the mysteries of which Christ’s parables hide to this day, is “at hand.” The first is the fact that the King of the kingdom has come and is here:

Mar 1:14  Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Joh 18:37  Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

But Christ was crucified that very day. How now would his disciples hear the “many things” they were not yet able to bear? Here is how that would be done:

Joh 14:18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

So where did the king of the kingdom go? Here is the part that has the orthodox Christian church baffled to this day. Here is one of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, which we hear but we don’t seem to know what it means. It is a lack of understanding of this Truth that answers your question about the spiritual significance of the wives of the patriarchs. It is failing to understand the spiritual truth and the depth of that spiritual truth which will keep us unfruitful and barren until the time appointed of the Father. Here is where the kingdom of God is at this time:

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Until we see that Christ spoke in parables to hide from the multitudes the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven within us, we will go around in this life looking for the coming of a physical kingdom. Indeed there will be a physical kingdom which will rule this earth with a rod of iron for a thousand years, but if you do not see that the parables are all about a kingdom which is within the hearts and minds of God’s people even now, then you will not be in that blessed and holy first resurrection, to rule over the people of this earth first, followed by the rulership and the purification of the spiritual bodies of all men of all time along with the great Red Dragon and all of his minions. The secret of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven is not the rulership of this world by the saints of God. That is not the secret which Christ’s parables hides. Here is the secret mystery which necessitated Christ speaking to the multitudes in parables:

Col 1:25  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26  Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

What is it that keeps us barren for so many long years? Why can we not see this mystery? What is this mystery which had been hid for so long from the generations of mankind?

Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

There it is for all the world to see and to know, and yet our eyes are blinded to the fact that all the prophecies of all the prophets deal with Christ and his kingdom of God within. We read Christ’s parables and we see only the words and not the message. We appropriate the good, and we put the bad on some other bad guy. But that is not how we come to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is the whole parable, the good and the bad, simply because that is what we do. It is you and I who stone the servants of our Lord when He sends them to get the fruit of His vineyard. It is you and I who kill His Son. It is you and I who are the Pharisee looking down on the Publican, the older son hating the prodigal, the ninety and nine sheep who need no repentance, and we are also the self- righteous Pharisee who drag the poor harlot to Jesus to be stoned for her weaknesses. That is what is the kingdom of God within before “the time appointed of the Father to bring us to sonship.
The wives of the patriarchs are us, until we are crushed to powder and brought to see that we of ourselves can do nothing but sin and commit the most heinous atrocities against our Lord and His Christ. We have no fruit of ourselves:
So we are admonished:

Eph 5:11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them [ within and without].

Tit 3:14  And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I hope this helps you to see that the wives of the patriarchs were all unfruitful and barren for our admonition, simply to show us that we are all required of our Creator to come to see flesh for what it is and for what “we all” are guilty of being “chief of sinners:

Eph 2:2  Wherein in time pas t ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1Ti 1:15  This [ is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 

Your brother in Christ,
Mike

Hi F____,
Thank you for asking about this. The fact that you cannot see the night and the day as the same thing is very good indeed, simply because they are not the same.
The word you have in quotation marks above are those of a detractor I was quoting. That certainly is not what I see Paul teaching in 1Th 5. What I am pointing out is that if you think verse nine is associated with verse eight instead of verse ten, as this detractor believes, then it is this detractor himself who is “cornered by God” because verse ten says that “whether we wake or sleep we shall live together with Him.” I think we all agree that salvation is not reserved only for God’s elect.
Since the exact verse you are referring to is not included, I will just take this opportunity to summarize 1Th 4 and 5 so as to make the point that Paul is making in verse 9 of chapter 5.
Here is that verse. This is the verse my detractor used as an excuse to separate himself from my fellowship.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Taking this verse by itself, it certainly looks like this verse is saying that God’s elect never have and never will experience God’s wrath. There it is: “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”
But in doing that we might as well also turn to the gospel of Mark and start teaching the doctrine of eternal hell fire:

Mar 9:47  And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

There it is. Someone somewhere has to be cast into Gehenna fire.
I think you know better than that. I have no doubt that you have come to see that the only way we can arrive at Truth is to consider “the sum of God’s Word.”

Psa 119:160  The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting. (NASB and many other translations)

Peter understood the importance of never establishing doctrine upon a single portion of God’s Word:

2Pe 1:20  Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private [ the Greek is ‘it’s own] interpretation.

Or as Rotherham’s has it:
 Of this, first, taking note- that no prophecy of scripture becometh self- solving; (REV)
So if we read 1Th 5:9 by itself and ignore all the rest of scripture on the subject of God’s wrath, we are going to miss out on “the sum of God’s Word.” For example we will miss out on these straight- forward statements about those on whom God’s wrath is poured out:  

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Does not that verse tell us that we have all been the children of God’s wrath “in times past?” Does it not say that we have all been “even as others” who will receive of “the seven last plagues?” Why are they called “last plagues ” if others had not received of them first “even as others.”
I have never said that the children of the day and the children of the night are one and the same. I am glad that you can see that that is not the case.
What I did say was that verses 9 and ten are both talking about the same thing, and that if you cannot see that then you do not understand who the ‘us’ of verse nine is. The ‘us’ of verse nine is the same as the ‘us’ of verse ten.

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for ‘us,’ that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

“We are not appointed to wrath… whether we wake or sleep?” I don’t think this is talking about the seven last plagues “wrath of God.” Verse ten is talking about the loss of salvation as the wrath of God. Verse ten is talking about death as God’s wrath against all mankind, an informs us that this is not the case… “Whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him… [ because] he is the savior of all men. specially those who believe.”

1Ti 4:10  For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

and again:

1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

So the ‘us’ of verse nine should be associated with the us of verse ten, but it should not be associated with the ‘us’ of verse eight:

1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Read those verses carefully. Paul is going to great lengths to separate the children of darkness from the children of light, the children of night from the children of the day, those who sleep in the night from those who watch and are sober. He concludes this exercise of extreme discrimination with this admonition:

1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Then apparently without explanation he says:

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

The reason Paul doesn’t bother to explain that verses 4-8 are separating the elect from the rest of mankind, is because he has already spent most of chapter four telling these Thessalonians that “the dead in Christ” would be raised and return to life at the first resurrection. Chapter four says nothing of the fate of those loved one who have died but who are not “in Christ:”

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now remember, Paul did not write his epistles with chapters and verses. So let’s just add the first eight verses of Chapter 5 to verses 13-18 of chapter four:

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night .
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye , brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

There it is. Chapter four deals with the “dead in Christ.” Paul assures these Thessalonians that they need not worry about those their loved ones who are “asleep in Christ.” He assures them that “the dead in Christ” will rise up at Christ’s return before those who are still alive, and together they will ascend to be with Christ. Then he tells them to “comfort one another with these words.”
But realizing that there are many more who have loved ones who have died who are not in Christ, Paul goes to great lengths in the first eight verses of chapter five to explain that God’s elect are not the same as others “who are of the night… [ and] of darkness.” He goes so far as to say:

1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

But Paul has not forgotten the love which God’s elect should be possessing for the masses who are not God’s elect in this age. Paul’s message here is the same as it is in Heb 11 where he tells us:

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them [ the unbelievers] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

We need to begin to pay greater attention to verses like these. This is what I was getting at in Dallas. You and I will never be complete until we have rescued Satan himself from the lake of fire. It is “through their unbelief that we believe,” just as it is “through our offenses that Christ was delivered up and it is through our justification that Christ was raised up:”

Rom 4:25  Who was delivered for [ Greek – dia – through] our offences, and was raised again for [ Greek – dia – through] our justification.
Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

So without saying so, Paul, just as he does in Rom 11, goes straight from “us who are of the day” to the unbelievers who are the masses who are “asleep in the night” and this is what he says of them:

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us [ all of mankind, “whether we wake or sleep”] to wrath [ of eternal death], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Which is just another way of saying “If the firstfruit [ elect] be holy, the lump is holy also.”
So when we read verses like this:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

We know that this verse is not in contradiction with 1Th 5:9. And when we read this verse:

Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

and this verse:

Jer 49:12  For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup [ of the wrath of God] have assuredly drunken; and art thou [ God’s elect “even as others”] he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it.

and this verse:

Rev 15:8  And the temple [“ye are the temple”] was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues [ of God’s wrath] of the seven angels were fulfilled.

and this verse:

Isa 54:8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

We realize that none of these verses which all have an application to God’s elect, contradict 1Th 5:9-10:

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us [ all mankind, “whether we wake or sleep”] to wrath [ of eternal death], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

If verse nine is not talking about all mankind then why does it say “God hath not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation?” Is salvation only for God’s elect? If Paul were telling these Thessalonians that only God’s elect are not appointed to wrath, then he would have followed that with something which does not apply to the rest of mankind. Something like “ruling with a rod of iron,” or being the channel “through whose mercy they would obtain mercy.” But that is not Paul’s point in verses nine and ten. He has spent much time dealing with the dead in Christ. He has spent the first eight verses of chapter 5 showing that there are many who are not dead in Christ. And in verse 9-11 he deals with the vast majority of our loved ones who have died not knowing Christ. In these three verses he assures these Thessalonians that “if the firstfruit [ elect] is holy, the lump [ unbelievers] are holy also:

1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us [ even those who die not knowing Christ] to wrath [ of eternal death], but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

“Whether we wake or sleep,” whether we are elect or not “we should live together with Him.” And how does Paul conclude this section speaking of all of mankind who are in unbelief? He ends it with the same words he used in speaking of “the dead in Christ;” back in chapter 4.

1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. [ concerning unbelievers who have died not knowing Christ]
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words. [ concerning the dead in Christ]

What you thought I was saying about 1 Thess. 5:9 was actually a quote from a detractor. I am sorry for not making that much clearer.
I hope this helps you to see what God’s Word teaches concerning God’s wrath. And I hope you can see that I, too, do not believe that the elect and the many called but not chosen, are the same.
Mike

Hi Mike,
 
I just misunderstood your punctuation marks. I do understand and did all along, but it was confusing to me.
Thanks again so much. Yes, you may post this because someone else could have misunderstood.  Maybe just me.
Love you all,
F____