Last updated September 2, 2004

Posted September 2, 2005

In order for one to believe in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection (as babes, feeding on milk), wouldn’t it still have to be through the faith of Christ, rather than ones own carnal faith? In order to be born, don’t we all have to start as babes? It seems to me that, in order to become a Christian babe, the spirit has to be given in order to even believe. And it also seems that no one will go on to maturity unless they start as babes in Christ. Then as Christ’s faith in us does it’s work, we mature and become more spiritual, and God determines when this maturity occurs, and apparently for many, he determines that they don’t move on to maturity. Do you agree?

Thanks

L____

Yes, L___,

Even the faith to initially come to Christ, is His faith working in us. Yes indeed, we do all begin as mere babes. While there are obviously degrees of maturity, there can be no doubt that one can and does continue to mature in Christ until the day of one physical death.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

I certainly do agree. Refusing to “Go on unto maturity,” is the greatest single stumbling block for most Christians. They actually believe that milk is meat.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection [ Greek- Maturity]; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.

This tendency in the church of God is dealt with specifically in three separate books of the New Testament. This tells us that this is a major problem for God’s “called to be saints.”

This was a problem that Paul dealt with in both Corinth and in the churches of Galatia.

1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

These Corinthians were “called to be saints.” They are even said to be “sanctified in Christ Jesus.” but what else are we told:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

The clear answer to this four times repeated question is yes, they are “yet carnal.”

Now, how about the Galatians?

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect [ Greek- mature] by the flesh?
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal 4:1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child [ Greek- nepios- immature toddler], differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
Gal 4:2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

So The Hebrews, the Corinthians, and the Galatians and the entire orthodox Christian church, are to this day “in bondage under the elements of the world… Under tutors and governors… differing nothing from slaves” to sin.

I hope this helps you to see the critical need for God’s people to “go on unto maturity”.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I am writing to you concerning your problem with established churches.

I know very well that most, if not all, churches (denominational institutions) have many internal problems as well as some beliefs that should not be preached – (tithing etc..). However, many of the preachers do have good intentions and trying to help people in their lives. I have to point out that I am not wrhis so that you will give the church a break – this is not my intent. My question is (to get to the point), did not Paul and some of the other disciples establish and maintain churches as an example for us in our time? Paul writes much about leaders, elders, bishops etc. in the churches of his day and how they are to “rule” (advise) over the flock. Why did Paul establish and give these instructions to the churches if it is not for us to do the same?

I have to say that, personally, I am not very much into “church” and have not been for a long while. I just don’t like preachers preaching to me. I believe in Christ in your life – not in a building or a man. However, I do get blasted and chastised for not going as often as I do and for not being more involved in my home church and do get reminded often that churches were established long before I came into this old world. What is wrong here?

Thanks,

M____

Hi M____,

It is good to hear from you again.

I don’t quite know what you mean by “your problem with established churches.” I have no problem with the established churches. Both of us would be the first to tell you that God’s elect “come out of her my people.” In other word’s, God would have no elect or chosen people, if He didn’t first have Babylon from which to call His chosen people.

It wasn’t me who made this prophecy:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [ shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?
Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

Who are these “Many [ who] come in Christ’s name admitting that Jesus is indeed Christ [ and yet] they deceive many?” Am I “deceiving many?” Is  it Mike Vinson who teaches all the false doctrines we deal with on our pages? No, we are not even a drop in the bucket in comparison “to the majority who peddle the Word of God” (2Co 2:17 Concordant Version).

Here is the Truth straight from the mouth of the Lord Himself:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

You see that English word ‘called?’ It is translated from the Greek word ‘kletos.’ “Many are kletos.” And you see that English word ‘chosen.’ It is the exact same word translated ‘elect.’

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Now that word translated ‘chosen,’ and ‘elect ‘ is the single Greek word ‘eklectos.’ It is the combination of two Greek words ‘ek,’ and kletos.’ The Greek word ‘ek,’ means ‘out of,’ or ‘point of origin.’ Just as surely as God commanded the light to shine ‘out of’ darkness, He has also called us ‘out of’ Babylon and “hath shined in our hearts” to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” In both cases , He uses that little Greek word ‘ek,’ ‘out of.’

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of [ ek] darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The only way to receive the “light of the glory of God,” is to recognize “the face of Jesus Christ.” “The face of Jesus Christ,” is scriptural language for those who recognize Christ when they meet Him. While the rest of the world walks right by Christ day after day, while thy read their Bibles, with their God given blinders, God’s ‘few … chosen,” His “very elect,” see Christ in every letter of His word. When the elect see “If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me…” The elect believe these words when they “see the face of Jesus Christ.” These words mean nothing to the “Many… called.” “The face of Jesus Christ is hidden behind an ‘Idol of the heart:”

Eze 14:1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
Eze 14:2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 14:3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
Eze 14:4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
Eze 14:5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.
Eze 14:6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
Eze 14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
Eze 14:8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I [ am] the LORD.
Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
Eze 14:10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;

Now, do I have ‘a problem,’ with the “many called,” who “will deceive the very elect if possible?” If I point out that it is plainly the deceived who comprise the “many deceive d,” and “the majority who pedal the Word of God,” If I point out that “the face of Jesus Christ is hidden behind the “idols of the heart,” that make up every doctrine of orthodox Christianity, do I therefore have a problem with established churches? No Mark I do not have a problem with established churches. It is the “established churches,” with all their heart’s idols who have the problem. I am seeing the face of Christ in His word. It is I who affirm that “all who take up the sword shall die by the sword.” I see the ‘face of Jesus Christ,’ in His words “Love thine enemies..” The “many called,” truly believe that this means ‘unless your enemy means you any real harm; in which case you should kill him like a “cockroach,” to paraphrase ‘pastor ,’ Adrian Rogers.

No, it is the “many called” of orthodox Christianity who have a problem with God’s Words and with the Words of Christ. The established churches may indeed have been around long before you or I, but they haven’t been around longer than the Truth of the Word of God. And that word tells us that it is the “Many… called,” who are deceived.

Paul Crouch admitted to the curse that orthodox Christianity is on his ‘Praise The Lord’ program. Now I would have a lot of trouble getting Paul to agree with me that he confessed to being a “curse that covers the face of the whole earth,” but I am willing to let you be the judge of whether I tell you the truth. What Paul actually did was to quote Zec 5:1-2, claiming that this is a prophecy of his satellite ministry. Well, I could not agree more. But Paul Crouch read only the first two verses of this chapter, then he closed his Bible and asked another of his false prophet, ‘peddlers of the Word of God,’ if indeed this was not a prophecy of ‘this satellite ministry? “Yes, preacher that is what the word of God says,” affirmed his partner. Now let us look at Zec 5 actually says. Let’s start with the part Paul Crouch read right out in public to prove to this world that his ministry is specifically mentioned in scriptural prophecy. Here is exactly what Paul Crouch read:

Zec 5:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
Zec 5:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof is twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.

In the background Paul had the image of one of his satellites up on a screen. It too, looked like a “flying roll.” It was barrel shaped, about twice as long as it was wide, and it too, was “flying.” But is this a prophecy of Paul’s ministry? Perhaps just a moment of “trying the spirits, ” would be in order at this point. Let’s see who God says this “flying roll” represents. Let’s allow the word of God to replace any “idols of the heart” we might tend to have. Here is God’s view of what this flying roll actually symbolizes:

Zec 5:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
Zec 5:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [ is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
Zec 5:3 Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.

This is an incredible prophecy about two fallen women who are “established in Shinar.” Shinar of course is Babylon. It is Babylon which we all are urged to “come out of her my people.” You be the judge; is Zec 5 a prophecy of Paul Crouch’s ministry? I think it is!

You say:

… Many of the preachers do have good intentions and are trying to help people in their lives.

No one denies this truth. Babylon is filled with “gold and silver and pearls,” the Biblical code for many good works. But Babylon has “touched the unclean thing” with all of her blasphemous false doctrines. And one of the greatest of these blasphemous doctrines is the doctrine of free moral agency.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

You be the judge.

“It is better to be divided by the truth than to be united in a lie,” (author unknown).

Let me hear from you.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I am currently reading your paper, “Strong Delusion.” Extremely enlightening! I have a couple questions.

What does the following mean:

“so be that we suffer with [ him]… we may be also glorified together”…

Does this mean that we have to literally suffer PHYSICAL pain (like getting the snot kicked out of us) of certain degrees in order to be “CHOSEN” sons of God? Or does this specifically mean to suffer, as in, putting OFF the fleshly desires and accepting the fact that it HURTS to starve the flesh? I am sort of at a loss on this issue.

Also, with regards to Heb 6, you state, “The truth about the so- called ‘unpardonable sin’ is that “it is impossible for those who were once enlightened… if they should fall away… to renew them to repentance…” in this age.”

What is this “falling away” in this passage? Would this mean that they literally REFUSE to go on to maturity even after KNOWING that they must? Or is this saying that if we still have sin in our life after receiving the truth that we cannot repent, even if we want to? I am struggling with certain sins in my life and all I ever think about is HOW I can rid myself of it. Is the answer just to “bite the bullet” whenever I get tempted and to just “take the pain” no matter how much it burns?

I greatly desire to move on to maturity but I need your help understanding HOW I can win the war over my fleshly desires so I can truly be used by God.

I sincerely need help. I would greatly appreciate your sound advice.

God Bless,

J____

Hi J____,

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, so I won’t bear any bad news. The good news is that it means that we have been counted worthy of suffering both physically and mentally. When God sent Ananias to pray for Saul of Tarsus, look at what he told Ananias abut what Paul had to look forward to:

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him [ Ananias], Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Act 9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.

To simply list all the physical calamities that befell Paul and to then tell any one that this is what you have to look forward to as a true believer, would be enough to discourage any one. But apparently not everyone must be martyred to be in the first resurrection. According to all accounts the apostle John died a natural death. Nevertheless, all one has to do to see the spirit in todays church, and to also understand that John too, ‘suffered for Christ’s name sake,’ is to read the epistles of John. John too, was rejected by those who “loved to have the preeminence:”

3Jn 1:9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

If you speak with your mouth the truths of God’s Word today, you too, will to this day find that the the spirit of Diotrephes is alive and well in all the churches of orthodox Christianity. They “will not receive us,” if we are faithful to God’s Word.

Paul was left for dead three times. So you and I may, or we may not be asked of God to endure physical suffering. We will definitely be asked to endure rejection from “those that love the preeminence in the church.”

The ‘falling away in Heb 6, has only to do with verses 4-6. Yes, yes, yes, ‘Falling away,” has only to do with those who refuse to “go on to maturity.” According to 1Co 3:1-4, Gal 3:1- 4:1, Heb 5:12-Heb 6:6; and according yo the first three chapters of Revelation, all Christians “are yet carnal,” even after they “are sanctified in Christ Jesus [ and] called to be saints” (1Co 1:2). In other words, the ‘prodigal son IS THE ELECT, and the older son is the called. Don’t accuse me of encouraging Christians to sin. I did not give that parable of the prodigal son. It was Christ who gave that parable, and it was Christ who inspired I Corinthians, Galatians, and Hebrews. All Babes in Christ will struggle to stop filling their spiritual diaper and wetting their spiritual bed. It will take time. Most will never mature past their spiritual diapers. That is why all three of these books deal with “babes in Christ,” who “for the time [ considering all the time that you have known Christ] ye ought to be teachers, [ instead you] have need of milk and not of strong meat.”

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The ‘older son,’ has never “By reason of use, had his senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” All of Gods elect will either: “leave their first love; [ listen to the] Nicolaitans; [ allow] that woman Jezabel to seduce them; etc., but just as the prodigal son, they will”come to themselves,” and “repent [ before] their candlestick is removed.”

‘Babylon,’ is the ‘slop trough’ in which the prodigal son finally sees his own reflection.” It is only then that we truly repent, are truly baptized in Christ and are truly circumcised. Not in the Red Sea, immediately after we initially leave Egypt, but after years of wandering around in a carnal, immature, rebellious, childish, Christian state; ” even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

The struggle with the flesh to which you refer is never to be taken lightly, but it is a routine for all who would strive for “the mark of the prize of the high calling of God, in Christ Jesus.”

Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind [ prodigal days in Babylon], and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

The elect are called “overcomers.” If they had never known sin then they are not “overcomers.”

Speaking to those who made up the ‘elder son,’ the called but not chosen, the church of His day Christ gave us these words:

Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The ‘elder son,” does not see how offensive his attitude toward his redeemed brother is in the eyes of his Father. He considers himself to be the righteous one of the two. He is jealous instead of grateful. He is exactly what we see in the orthodox Christian churches whenever we mention the scriptural fact that God does not intend to lose one single soul, but will seek and find and save “that which was lost.”

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It is only those who finally come to see that they are hopelessly lost; that see that they can not of themselves overcome the pulls of the flesh, that finally, after “falling seven times,” meaning complete failure, who will be brought to the faith of being able to say with Paul and all who have been there:

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

You say this:

I am struggling with certain sins in my life and all I ever think about is HOW I can rid myself of it. Is the answer just to “bite the bullet” whenever I get tempted and to just “take the pain” no matter how much it burns?

The answer to this question is that what is working in you is a work of God. Regardless of how hopelessly weak you may feel at this time, God will bring you to see clearly that YOU can do nothing of yourself. You cannot “rid yourself” of these sins.” Once you come to recognize this down to the marrow of your bones, only then will Christ give you the strength to ‘overcome,’ sin in your life.

Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

You have a great attitude when you say:

I greatly desire to move on to maturity but I need your help understanding HOW I can win the war over my fleshly desires so I can truly be used by God. I sincerely need help. I would greatly appreciate your sound advice.

I wish I could help you, but salvation is a process that takes time and experience. It requires the experience of failure “seven times.” This means complete, total, undeniable, hopeless, crushed- to- powder failure. Maturity is a work of God. If you haven’t yet done so, be sure to read the letter entitled ‘The Seven Steps To Salvation.” It rehearses the example of Israel as a type of us.

1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [ were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The words ‘examples,’ and ensamples,’ are the same in the Greek. They are translated from the Greek word ‘tupos.’ Israel’s history and experiences are ‘types of us.’ Salvation is not something we received in the past, because of something Christ did for us. This is the strong delusion for orthodoxy. While salvation certainly was secured for all men through the finished work of Christ while He was on the cross, what that ‘finished,’ work accomplished is that now, in spirit, Christ can live His life in us. We can now “fill up in our flesh that which is behind of the sufferings of Christ.” It is Christ living His life of rejection and suffering in us that matures us. That was never possible before the work of Christ was “finished.”

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:

This is the ‘finished,’ work of Christ, to fill up in our flesh that which is behind of His sufferings, for His body’s sake, which is the church.” When Christ “ascended up into a cloud,” He didn’t go to some other geographical location. He is now “in” us. That is where Christ went. I recommend reading What and Where is Heaven? if you have not already done so.

I will close with some very encouraging words from Paul that I have no doubt are as applicable to you and me as they were to the Phillipians

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Being vigilant has nothing in common with being fearful. A vigilant man is very confident that he can handle his enemy. Neither does vigilance conflict with the sovereignty of God, because we know that grace is a work of God, and “grace… chastens us to forsake ungodliness…” (Tit 2:10-120. That is why Paul was so confident that God would finish the work He had started. This is the very meaning of “Where sin abounds [ chastening] grace doth much more abound.”

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I hope you find these words encouraging,

Mike >