If We Come Out Are We Still In The Church?

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Hi C____,

Thank you for your question. Your question gives me the opportunity to clarify something which I think has been needing clarification for a long, long time.

I have often mentioned that I have learned so very much from the writings of Andrew Jukes. So you can imagine how disappointed I was to read in His own writings that he did not believe that we should come out of the church. Jukes was cast out of the ministry of the church of England simply because he refused to sign onto a subscription which required all clergymen of the church of England to proclaim their “consent and assent to the prayer book” of the church of England, which among other things declared the king (queen at the time) to be supreme over all things on earth pertaining to the church :

“That the King’s Majesty, (now the Queen’s) under God, is the only supreme Governor of this realm, and of all other her Highness’s dominions and countries, as well in all Spiritual or Ecclesiastical things or causes, as Temporal; and that no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate, hath or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power superiority, pre- eminence, or authority, Ecclesiastical or Spiritual, within her Majesty’s said realms, dominions, and countries.” (The Way Some Call Heresy).

Yet, in spite of being robbed of his livelihood because of his inability to compromise his conscience, Mr. Jukes, to the day of his death, would not renounce the church of England as the harlot that it obviously was. Andrew Jukes, like the “historical orthodox Christian church” today, believed that God had but one church, and that one church was indeed God’s only church.

Does God have but one church? Must we all remain in the church because as Andrew Jukes contended “If we separate ourselves from the church, we are denying that it is the church.” What is the answer to this question which has confused so very many for so long? Are we to come out of the church? If we do come out of the church, are we now not part of God’s church?

The answer to your question and the solution to Andrew Jukes’ dilemma lies in Gal 3 and 4. But we will never understand Gal 3 and 4 until we come to see that the Jews of Christ’s day were the ‘church’ of Christ’s day. And the church of Christ’s day represents the church of today.

Act 7:38 This is he [ Moses], that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel [ Christ] which spake to him [ Moses] in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Now ask yourself, where is the church of today? Is it “seated with Christ in heavenly places” as were those who came out of the church in the wilderness in Christ’s day?

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The church of today is in the exact same place that it was in the days of Christ. It is still to this day “the church in the wilderness.” And we are told that this is so:

Rev 12:14 And to the woman [ the church] were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Because we were all part of this “church in the wilderness,” we have always read the words “she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent” and we have placed a very positive connotation upon those words. But what became of the “church in the wilderness?”

1Co 10:5 But with many of them [ all but Caleb and Joshua] God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

Heb 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

“The wilderness” is spiritual language which conveys the thought of self- righteousness and rebellion. That is the very meaning of “in the wilderness.” That is why we are informed that even Christ was in the wilderness “with wild beasts.”

Mar 1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.

Christ’s “temptation of Satan” was not a mere formality. Christ was truly tempted. He was just as tempted and more so than Adam and Eve were. But Christ’s temptation by Satan had the opposite outcome. The outcome of Christ’s temptation was the events in the garden of Eden in reverse. Instead of succumbing to Satan’s twisting of the words of God, Christ tried the spirits and found that they are not of God and He rebukes those spirits with the Word of God. And that is exactly what He continued to do when he came out of the wilderness and began His ministry.

Look at what Christ told “those Jews who believed on Him” who were in that “church in the wilderness:”

Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many [ Jews of the “church in the wilderness”] believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

“The church in the wilderness” never sees itself as being in bondage. Though this “church in the wilderness” is a harlot, she sees herself as having no sin:

Pro 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman [ church]; she eateth [ the leaven of the Pharisees], and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

This is a perfect description of how Israel felt about herself even as she was rebelling against God:

Num 16:2 And they [ Korah and the leaders of Israel] rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
Num 16:3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?

These were not men who were looked down upon by God’s “church in the wilderness.” These were “princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:” These people believed in God, but they simply did not agree with God’s doctrine as He had revealed it through His servants Moses and Aaron. Korah and the 250 famous men of renown typify today’s “famous men of renown” in God’s “church in the wilderness.”

Now look at this shocking revelation of those of the church today who believe on Christ and yet had no use for His doctrine:

Joh 8:31 (a) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him…

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you [ who believe in me and yet “are of your father the devil”] the truth, ye believe me not.

Andrew Jukes did not understand, and “historical orthodox Christianity” to this very day does not understand how one can be in the church and still be “of your father the devil.” They cannot comprehend how one can be in the church and still be the “seed of the serpent.” They cannot understand the spiritual message in Gal 3 and four. They cannot grasp the allegory of the two wives of Abraham which Paul tells us explains this entire dilemma.

Paul tells us plainly:

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Who among those who are part of “historical orthodox Christianity”, who are Abraham’s “son of the bondwoman” to this very day, believe that “the covenant… from mount Sinai… gendereth to bondage?” Who in the church today understands how Christ can say “I know you are Abraham’s seed,” and yet say to the very same people ” If you were Abraham’s seed… you are of your father the devil?”

Many of us were raised by the church to believe that the church is not under the law, even as we were taught to be water baptized, to attend church every Sunday and to pay our tithes faithfully. What the church is in effect telling us is “we be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?” How dare anyone even suggest that “historical orthodox Christianity”, which has historically been enslaved to the Mosaic doctrine of “hate thine enemy”, is still under the law! The constant unbroken years of wars and crusades testify that “historical orthodox Christianity” is still “under the law.”

Hating their enemies was certainly a part of the doctrine of “those Jews which believed on Christ:” “Love thine enemies” is detested by those who believe in Christ and are still of their father the Devil:

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

Christ’s word has no place in the church in the wilderness, even though it believes in Christ.

Christ here says of “these Jews which believed on Him… I know you are Abraham’s seed.” You and I can also say of Babylon ‘I know you are Christians.” But look now what Christ says just a few verses later:

Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Christ is here explaining Gal 3 and 4. Let’s go over to Galatians and see what is the truth which Andrew Jukes and so many other Christians cannot understand about the need and necessity of separating oneself from the doctrines of Babylon. Let’s see what Paul reveals about coming out of “the church in the wilderness.”

Here is the apostle Paul preaching “replacement theology.” This is a doctrine which is especially detested by the church in the wilderness of today:

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we [ all of us] were kept under the law [‘under the schoolmaster… under tutors and governors’], shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And i f ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So what confuses so many Christians is that they think that the schoolmaster is the same as “faith is come”. All who are faithful church- going Christians think that “faith is come”. Many of them have indeed made great changes in their lives after mouthing the sinner’s prayer. No one is going to convince them that ‘faith is not yet come’ to them. Of course Christ’s words “resist not evil” make them want to vomit. And His command to “love thine enemies” is absolutely disgraceful to them, but they still think that the word of Christ has plenty of room in them because they have made many changes in their lives, and they are indeed performing many wonderful works which make them feel very good about themselves. As all of “historical orthodox Christianity” see it, they are now able to keep the ten commandments of Moses because they now have the spirit of God in them. The ten commandments receive much more attention from Abraham’s “son of the bondwoman” than do the commandments of Jesus Christ as recorded in Mat 5-7 and throughout the New Testament. The “church in the wilderness” to this very day cannot conceive of the seed of the serpent (“Ye are of your father the devil…”) as being those who believe on Christ and attend church every Sunday.. They do not have the spirit of God in them helping them to keep the ten commandments. What they do have is “another Christ and another spirit and another gospel which the apostle Paul never preached.”

Let’s answer the question, ‘how is it possible for the scripture to tell us that these Jews ‘believed on Christ’ and at the same time wanted to kill Him? Here is how: The Christ they believed in was not the same Christ that they thought He was. The gospel which they thought they were getting from listening to His parables was another gospel. The spirit they had was another spirit far from the spirit of Christ.

Here is how Paul puts it:

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

“Another gospel which is not another…?” Most Christians cannot cope with such apparently contradictory statements. Such statements as these are throughout the New Testament. “I know you are Abraham’s seed… If you were Abraham’s children… The beast which is, which was and which is not… seeing they see not… let the dead bury their dead… she is dead while she liveth,” etc. etc.

So it is with God’s ‘children’ and His ‘church’ and His ‘body.’

All men are the ‘sons of God’ through the work of Christ in the first Adam:

Luk 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Paul also acknowledges this truth when he quotes the poets of his day:

Act 17:28 For in him [ God] we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we [ all mankind] are also his offspring.

So how can we possibly “come out of her” and still be in God’s church?

Now it is time to see a “come out of her” pattern which is revealed throughout the Bible.

God has a covenant with Adam and Adam’s offspring. That covenant is a two part covenant that has continued down though all the generations since Adam. Here is what we are told of this covenant which God has established with mankind:

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee [ the serpent-“your father the devil”] and the woman [ the church, both the”son of the bondwoman and the son of the free woman”], and between thy seed [ those Christians who believe on Christ as the “son of the bondwoman” and yet “are of Your father the devil”] and her seed [ the “seed of the woman- the son of the freewoman,” Christ]; it [ Christ} shall bruise thy head, and thou [ Satan and his “son of the bondwoman” children] shalt bruise his heel [ Christ and all who typify Him down through the ages].

Here is this same story from a New Testament perspective:

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise [ of the “seed of the woman” of the world “being blessed through Abraham and His seed”] of none effect.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were [ all] kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Oh, how the ‘son of the bondwoman’ Christians hate that verse of God’s Word. How can the physical become the spiritual?

But ask yourself, from where was Abraham called? Abraham was called out of Babylon, out of Ur of the Chaldees. Jacob, Abraham’s grandson, is referred to as “a Syrian:”

Deu 26:5 And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish [ was] my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:

Before God ever called Abraham out of Babylon, He had called Adam His “son.” Out of Adam’s children God called out Seth’s descendants. At the time of the flood Noah was called out of all of Seth’s children. God then made a covenant with Noah and his seed:

Gen 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons’ wives with thee.

Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

God has a covenant with Noah and all of his seed after him. But what happened to Noah’s covenant children? Like Adam, Cain, and even the children of Seth before them, Noah’s children forgot that they had a covenant with God. So what does God do once again? He calls Abraham out of his covenant people. And just look at the words God uses when telling Abraham of this covenant:

Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

Are you beginning to see a pattern developing ? It is a pattern of the first child being of the flesh and being rejected. It is a pattern of the latter being called out of the former. It is a pattern of the natural coming first and “afterward that which is spiritual;”

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that [ was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

This pattern is reiterated next in Esau and Jacob. This covenant of God with Adam and His children to provide a “seed of the woman” is the very first prophecy of the coming of Christ in God’s Word. Christ is the “seed of the woman.” Those who have and have had and will have the spirit of the “Jews which believed on Christ… but had no room in them for His word;” those Christians who have within them plenty of room for the leaven and the spirit of the Pharisees”, on the other hand, are the “seed of the serpent.”

What “historical orthodox Christianity” has failed to notice is that both the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent are the product of one single woman and that ‘woman’ typifies the church:

Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

So what are we to conclude? What is the ‘church?’ The ‘church’, as you point out in your very helpful definitions of the words ‘ek’ and ‘kletos’, the two root words from which the word eklektos comes; the church is both the kletos and the eklektos. Both the “son of the bondwoman and the son of the freewoman” are Abraham’s called out sons. So I hope this makes it clear why Christ and you and I can say we must “come out of Babylon” and at the same time be found ” in the streets of that great city” testifying against all the abominations which are occurring in Babylon.

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city [“that great city wherein our Lord was crucified” of Rev 11], through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

With Christ, we should be able to say “I know you are Abraham’s seed…” and at the same time say ” If you were Abraham’s children you would do the works of Abraham.” This will seem contradictory only to those who cannot go from being the physical “son of the bondwoman… seed of the serpent” Christian to the spiritual “son of the freewoman… seed of the woman” Christian. Both are Abraham’s seed; just as both the “seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman” both are of Adam and Eve.

Christ Himself clarifies this for us right here in Joh 8 when He makes this statement:

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

In other words, there are far more ‘disciples’ who “believe on Him” than there are “disciples indeed…” Joh 8 is critical to understanding how it is possible to come out of the church and still be “his body which is the church”. Both the body and the church have a physical and spiritual application. The manna was “bread from heaven” (Exo 16:4), but it was not the true bread:

Exo 16:4 (a) Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you…
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

So there WAS a physical bread from heaven, but for those with spiritual eyes to see, there is also a ” true (spiritual) bread from heaven.”

There is also a church, but there is also a ‘true church.’

There is a body, and there is also a ‘true body.’

There is Abraham’s seed of which we can, with Christ, say “I know you are Abraham’s seed,” and in the same breath say, ” If you were Abraham’s seed… you are [ really] of your father the devil.”

There is a seed of Abraham which is the “son of the bondwoman”, and there is a seed of Abraham which is the true seed of Abraham, “the son of the freewoman.”

And yet the physical children of the physical freewoman Sarah are likened to the descendants of Hagar:

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

It is all in parables. God’s Word is not intended, to this very day, to be understood by the natural- minded Christians who to this day come in multitudes to hear the parables of Christ from the very mouth of Christ and His elect. To this very day the natural mind of today’s 1Co 1-3 Christians cannot understand or perceive the things of the spirit.

1Co 2:13 Which things [ of the spirit] also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

As all of this demonstrates, the church which is the seed of the bondwoman is, to this very day just as it was in Paul’s day, “yet carnal”. Speaking to the Corinthian church which was “sanctified in Christ Jesus called to be saints and coming behind in no gift (1Co 1:1-3 and verse 7), Paul goes on to tell these same Christians:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul [ Protestant]; and another, I am of Apollos [ Catholic]; are ye not carnal?

And so it will remain until the end of the ages; the church is “God’s house”

2Ti 2:20 But in a great house [ God’s house] there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

It is all the working of all things after the counsel of His own will.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Ephs 4:14 That we [ henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [ and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Hope this is helpful.


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