Mike,

I once again have to thank you for maintaining such a wonderful site of information. The articles, the emails, etc. without fluff. I have devoured almost every article on your site and have used them as talking points with fellow Christians with amazing responses.

Today I would like to note something. I do not think it’s a disagreement, but it’s a point where I’m wondering what you think.

It appears to me that the Wedding Banquet and the Lord’s supper (as you have described) are the same thing. In other words: the chosen few will live this life on earth as the elect yet still sinners. They will partake in the Lord’s supper (ie. His daily bread and His ‘cup’ of death.) Those who witness the elect eating at ‘the wedding banquet’ are truly outside where there are weeping and gnashing of teeth as they struggle in lives against the taskmaster. They then are saved in the second ressurrection.

It seems that this is what the scriptures are saying, instead of a flesh event where people arise in flesh for a period. Because those at the wedding banquet also serve as the lake of fire. It seems of two analogies describing the same event. But it appears to me that these events are spiritual and happen ‘through the ages’.

That the first and second ressurrection as you’ve described are here and now spiritually. The lake of fire. The wedding banquet. The events with the beast. … it makes sense.

I also want to separately add to you a personal observation. I am also a mathematician and a chemist. The fact that the world tells of God is no less true in the world of Multi-dimentional calculus and theoretical math. We learn that Time is the 5th dimension…(in other words. x/y axis Isa 2 dimensions, xyz axes are 3D. xyz axis moving along a separate xy axis is the 5th dimension. And then there’s 6th, 7th, 99th etc…. which can’t even be represented by pictures only math.)

It really brought to light the fact that TIME itself is a creation of God… and that God is not bound by time (the 5th dimension) but exists so far above. And time’s sole purpose as a creation is merely the unfolding and revealing of what God has created through Christ. And Christ is at the beginning of that mathematical line and at the end… and guiding it along the whole way. And all our lives, the history of man, the revealing of types/shadows… all fall underneath the 5th dimension. In a way I saw a mathematical example of ‘is, was and will be’: it’s the limitless amount of mathematical dimensions above the 5th.

Well… just an example: Science and math tell of God even at the deepest levels, we are just often too blind to see it.

Thanks again my friend.
K____

Hi K____,

Thank you for your encouraging words. I am grateful for every person who takes the time to sit down and express their gratitude for the Truths of God’s Word. Far more important is the fact that God Himself is aware of those who are grateful for the healing they are being given.

I want to make a comment on one statement you have made which would not be called a “pattern of sound words” even though I think you have an overall understanding of what the scriptures teach. Here is your statement:

“The chosen few will live this life on earth as the elect yet still sinners.”

I will only say that the scriptures tell us that we are “free from sin” even as we are living in “sinful flesh.”

Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free [Greek: eleutheroo – future tense].

Rom 6:18 Being then made free [Greek: eleutheroo – Aorist tense] from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin [Greek: eleutheroo], and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

The word translated ‘free’ is also translated ‘delivered.’

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered [Greek: eleutheroo] from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

What it all means is that our flesh will always be sin and unworthy of entering the kingdom of God:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Yet we are seated with Christ in the heavens, in earnest or downpayment form, even as we continue to live in “sinful flesh.”

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Like Christ, we live in a body of sin which misses the mark of a heavenly, spiritual body, but sin does not have dominion over us:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Grace chastens us (Tit 2:11-12) to forsake ungodliness and worldly lusts.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching [Greek: paideuo – chastens] us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

While Christ never gave in to these lusts as we have all done, He nevertheless suffered through their pulls at His flesh, and He learned from this trial He lived. Had He been any less the seed of Abraham than are we, He would have had no claim to coming in “the same… sinful… flesh and blood.”

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood , he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Many commentators, unable to accept Christ’s total humanity, unable to see Adam himself as “the son of God,” tell us that Paul was careful to say ‘in the likeness’ of sinful flesh. By this they are telling us that Christ was not really in sinful flesh, at all. It was just flesh that seemed to be sinful flesh.

Well, we had all better hope that the word ‘likeness’ means ‘like’ and not, as the commentators want us to believe, ‘unlike’ Just look at how catastrophic such a doctrine is:

Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness [same Greek word translated ‘likeness’ in Rom 8:3] of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Will we not really be resurrected? Look at this admonition from our Lord, if you want to know what this Greek word really means. Remember, the word translated ‘likeness’ in Rom 8:23 is homoioma, Strong’s number 3667.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Now notice this admonition from our Lord:

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

The Greek word translated ‘like’ in Mat 6:8 is homoioo, Strong’s number 3666. Both words share the same Greek root, ‘homo.’ If we pray just to be heard for our much speaking, are we not really like the heathen who do so? How absurd! When we use the word ‘homosexual’ are we talking of someone who is only somewhat of the same sex? How absurd. Even so Christ came, “made of a woman” who came straight from Adam, “made under the law.”

Gal 4:4  But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

And it was becoming flesh that made Christ sin. It was not being nailed to the cross. Yes, he bore our sins on the cross, but he had been “made sin” simply by being “conceived in sin” and being made a “marred… vessel of clay: “

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The Hebrew word translated ‘marred’ is normally translated ‘ruined’ or ‘destroyed.’ Check it on with your e-sword or other bible study help. Christ’s flesh was “marred in the hand of the Potter… shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin,” like all “vessels of clay” are.

And so we are plainly told:

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more [after the flesh].
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray [you] in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Leave off the words ‘to be;’ they are in brackets to tell us that they are not in the Greek which reads “He made Him sin for us, who knew no sin…”

I say all of this to point out that nowhere are those in Christ ever, scripturally called sinners. But a pattern of sound words says we are “not sinners of the Gentiles.”

Gal 2:15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Paul did not consider himself to be a slave to sin. And yet he did consider all flesh to be “sinful flesh,” and he considered himself to have been “chief of sinners.” But in his mind that was a thing of the past from which he had been saved:

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

We are to be righteous men who are aware of what is flesh:

Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

I have emboldened all the words which are in the past tense in those verses. That is what we were; “we were dead in sins.” So what are we now?

We now “live unto righteousness,” because “grace reigns through righteousness…” Grace does not reign through unrighteousness:

Rom 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Are we sinners? In the sense that I am sin and have been a slave of sin, yes, Mike Vinson is “chief of sinners” and totally unworthy of the gift of life I have been given. But that is all behind me.

1Ti 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

I am no longer a slave to that sinful beast that is, was and will be, Mike Vinson until the day Mike Vinson has no more days to live. That beast has been and is being conquered every day by an ever-increasing “Christ in me.” I can now truly say as I quoted earlier in 2Co 5:

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease

This too, is an ‘is, was and will be’ process. He is increasing daily, and I, as Paul, will “die daily” as long as there are days in which to die. But I can also now honestly say with the apostle that sin no longer has dominion over me:

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

I hope you do not feel that I have belabored this point. Let it never be said the we at iswasandwillbe.com teach that as new creatures we “continue in sin.” That is certainly not the case. We are “sinful flesh”, but we do not continue in sin. We do rather “die daily” to sin.

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 8:3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

1Co 15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

I never understood the difference between a sin offering and a trespass offering until I came to see that these are two separate offerings. One is for what God has made us:

Psa 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Jer 18:4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred i n the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

That is what we are. We are “made sin.” But we also need an offering for what we do in these bodies which are “made sin.” We need a “trespass offering” for our transgressions in these bodies of “sinful flesh.”

Rom 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Gal 3:19  Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

You are right on target when you say that no one is raised as flesh, but where you seem to go with that concerns me. Here now is your next statement:

It seems that this is what the scriptures are saying, instead of a flesh event where people arise in flesh for a period. Because those at the wedding banquet also serve as the lake of fire. It seems of two analogies describing the same event. But it appears to me that these events are spiritual and happen ‘through the ages’.”

Again it is true we all experience “every word of God,” so God’s elect experience the same fire as is in the lake of fire. But we are that fire only if and because His Word is in us. But it is not a pattern of sound words to say that it is “the same event.” Those in the first resurrection are “blessed and holy” and are not “hurt of the second death.”

Rev 2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Second is not a number; it is an order of occurrence. Those in the second death are those who are the second to die. Those who are in that “blessed and holy first resurrection” are those who “fell into the ground and died” first, while still in “vessels of clay.” Those in the second resurrection “suffer loss” and are ruled over by those who are given rulership.

1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? [“this life in the flesh – millennial rule] and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? [lake of fire rule] how much more things that pertain to this life?

This is missed by those who are in the lake of fire:

Rev 2:26  And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end , to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27  And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

1Co 3:13  Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. [the lake of fire]

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

None of this is promised to those who do not overcome. So they are indeed happening throughout all the generations since Christ, in the sense of “every man’s works being tried by fire. Yes, the fire in the lake of fire is the same fire that is in our “fiery trial.” But these are not the “same event.” One is first, and one is last. And the rewards are vastly different. One is common to all, and the other is “the mark of the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus.”

Php 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Your last paragraph is this:

That the first and second resurrection as you’ve described are here and now spiritually. The lake of fire. The wedding banquet. The events with the beast. … it makes sense.

Inasmuch as we are in Christ we will all, in time, experience both resurrections. In Christ, we who are in the first resurrection will know what is the second resurrection, and when those in the second resurrection are purified and come to be “in Christ,” then they, too, will know what is the first resurrection. But what seems to be missing in your understanding is that the aions, that is ‘time’ comes to an end:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1Co 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God the Father being all in all is the goal of God’s creation. Listen to the talk on ‘The Christ’ that I gave in Dallas, Texas last February. God’s elect fill Christ who fills His Father. But Christ and His elect are not full until all men are given mercy in the lake of fire. Only then will God be all in all. Until the first resurrection, we possess our inheritance only in downpayment form, which the scriptures describe as ‘earnest:

2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Paul says we are “saved by hope”:

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Rom 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for [it].

It is through that hope and the “firstfruit of the spirit” that we are able to see and understand the rest of Ephesians one:

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Christ’s inheritance is “in the saints.” Those saints are “the church which is Christ’s body,” which is the fullness of Christ who fills Him that fills all in all.

I am sorry, but your math is way over my head. I agree that God is the ultimate mathematician, and as with all else in His creation, even time itself is under His command. As you say, even “science and math tell of God.”

I hope what I have said is in some way edifying.

Your brother in the Christ,
Mike