Do The Scriptures Condone Homosexuality?

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Hi M____,

Thank you for taking the time to write to tell me how misguided you think I am about what is the mind of God concerning the practice of homosexuality.
Just so you know, I do not look down on homosexuals or adulterers. I confess that I am not homosexual, but if you had read more on iswasandwillbe. com you would have seen where I point out on several occasions that adultery is always listed ahead of fornication when the works of the flesh are listed.

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Christ tells us that if we as much as look on a woman to lust after her, we are guilty of adultery in our hearts.

Mat 5:27  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

I suppose that from your perspective, since Christ did not mention homosexuality right here along with men lusting after women, that therefore being homosexual is being blessed by Christ here in Mat 5. Of course that is the same as saying that since he did not condemn child abuse and bestiality, that they are also being blessed by Christ herein Mat 5.
Now I have nothing personal against Mr Brentlinger, but I want to point out this statement he makes on his web page.

“Anti- gay Christians cannot cite even one first century reference where the malakos stem and the arsenokoit stem were used to refer to two men in committed, faithful, noncultic same sex partnership. And a few conservative, anti- gay evangelical Christian scholars now have the courage to admit that important fact.”

The reason why not even the New Testament has one reference to “two men in committed, faithful, noncultic, same sex partnership” is because same sex relationships are condemned right alone with adultery throughout the New Testament. Mr. Brentlinger’s analysis of the first century use of “the malakos stem and the arsenokoit stem” prove the exact opposite of what he claims. They demonstrate that the words were used in reference to homosexual activity, but when they do so, he dismisses it as “idol worship”. That is simply not being intellectually honest, and reveals the bias of which you accuse me.
I read the link in your e- mail and according to my cursor bar on the right side of my screen I was almost half way down a very long article, before I came to the first scripture, and here is that scripture:

Did you know Jesus never condemned gay people and never condemned gay partnerships? Jesus affirmed gay people in Mat 19:11-12.

This is absolutely incredible! Let’s look at these verses, and see whether they have anything at all to do with homosexuality. Here these verses are with the preceding verses:

Mat 19:9  And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
Mat 19:10  His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
Mat 19:11  But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12  For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [ their] mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive [ it], let him receive it.

To take the word ‘eunuchs’ and twist it into homosexuals is again simply intellectually dishonest and grasping at straws to justify one’s unscriptural desires. I have used the word grace in that same way in the past to justify my own sinful desires, so I am not looking down on either you or Mr. Brentlinger. I am simply remaining faithful to God’s Word. The apostle Paul, was himself a “eunuch for the kingdom of heavens sake” and was not married, and it is He who wrote the very verses that specifically mention and condemn homosexuality.

1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Adultery and straight sex perversion is always listed first, but it is twice mentioned along with “abusers of themselves with mankind”. Here is the second use of this Greek word.

1Ti 1:10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

You are asking me to believe that Paul dealt with promiscuity among straights, and he dealt with family relationships among straights, but never dealt with the proper relationships among “two men in committed, faithful, noncultic same sex partnership.” Again, that is a stretch which just is not there in the scriptures. Eunuchs are not homosexuals, and neither are “faithful same sex relationships.” Both of those concepts are twisting all admonitions concerning sexual morality completely out of God’s Word.
Then, near the bottom of that web page, I saw where Mr. Brentlinger, the founder of this page wrote this:

“I began to study Lev 18:22 and 20:13. I kept praying this prayer.
“O Lord, please show me Your truth. I don’t want to be led astray. I want to believe Your truth, whatever it is.”

Again the Holy Spirit seemed to be questioning me.

“Who is Moses talking to in Leviticus chapters 18 and 20?”

I read the context and discovered that Moses is talking to the children of Israel, about 1450 BC, as they are preparing to move into the land of Palestine. He is not addressing his remarks to Christians living 3000 years later, who are not under the law and who are not residents of Palestine.

I have emboldened that last sentence to make the point that this is the exact logic which permeates this entire page, and the other page I looked at which dealt specifically with Roman 2:26-27.

Rom 1:26  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27  And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Mr Brentlinger, in dealing with Rom 2:26-27 goes to great lengths to make these verses all about idolatry, completely unaware that from a scriptural perspective, lust is idolatry.

Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Sexual desires are natural. There would be no sons of Adam on this earth without those natural desires. But homosexual desires, while they too, are the work of God [Pro 16:4; Eph 1:11], are no more or less evil than heterosexual desires which are gratified outside of marriage. Will you attempt to convince me that Col 3:5 is speaking only to straight people. Is it only straight people who are instructed to “mortify [ die to] therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry”?
I think that even Mr. Brentlinger knows better than to attempt that. That verse in Col 3 alone blows this whole argument that Rom 1:26-27 is speaking of idolatry, out of the water. Idolatry is not the worship of physical idols or icons as much as it is the satisfaction of the unclean desires of the flesh enumerated in Col 3:5.
I do not mean to come across as uncaring, but read it again: “Fornication, uncleaness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry
What this all boils down to is the one thing for which you most take me to task. You say that you cannot believe that God would make us wicked and then expect us to give an accounting for that wickedness. Here is what you say:

So we are both “sincere and peaceful”. 

I must ask you which “men’s traditions” teach any such thing as “a mere human being having to give an account for something God is responsible for creating”. Don’t you have that backward? Is it not you who are in complete agreement with men’s traditions of teaching that mankind has a will that is free?
I certainly do not doubt your sincerity or the sincerity of Mr. Brentlinger. Here are Mr. Bentlinger’s own words after many long years of struggling to come to terms with his own homosexual desires given him apparently by God from birth:

I kept praying this prayer. “O Lord, please show me Your truth. I don’t want to be led astray. I want to believe Your truth, whatever it is.”

I pray he is telling the truth when he say “whatever it is”, because, as I will demonstrate in this e- mail, God creates evil in us and humbles us with it:

Pro 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)

While I have never struggled against homosexual desires, I can certainly identify with Mr. Brentlinger’s feelings of helplessness in overcoming the desires of my own heterosexual flesh. My illicit desires were no less sinful than Mr. Brentlinger’s homosexual desires, and I completely commiserate with him in the feeling of helplessness against those illicit desires. But contrary to what you imply in your “finisher” above, God did not make me or Mr. Brentlinger perfect, with a will that was free of God’s own influence over the least details of our lives, or the lives of all of mankind. Quite the contrary, “the vessel that He made of clay was marred in the Potter’s hand… and God himself made even the wicked for the day of evil, and is the very Creator of evil. It is He who is “working all things after the counsel of His own will” and is “showing mercy to those He chooses and hardening those who He has predestined to be vessels of dishonor, while they were in their mother’s wombs having done neither good no evil so that the purpose of God according to His election might stand…”

Here is the scriptural fact of this matter, of which you are apparently completely unaware. That is not meant to be harsh, but it is intended to cause you to reconsider your stance concerning God creating us as sinning machines and then requiring us to give an accounting of those sins. Here is the truth of that matter:

Psa 139:16  your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. (NIV)

Now look closely at these following verses, then write me back and tell me whether you still believe that I am “embarrassing myself and throwing my credibility out the window.” Here are your words:

If you and Mr. Brentlinger really do “want only to believe God’s Truth whatever it is” then consider these words from the holy spirit, and get back to me. The spirit actually anticipated your question about God making us sinful and then expecting an accounting of those sins when the spirit itself posed your very question. Please note that nowhere do the scriptures use the phrase “hold accountable”, but everywhere we see the phrase ” give an accounting”. There is a world of difference. Now let’s look at what the scriptures teach on this subject.

Rom 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19  Thou [ Michael] wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man [ Michael], who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

You have not yet been granted eyes to see these verses of scripture. I Amo 63 years old, and I have read the Bible from cover to cover, several times from my youth and did not see these things until I was almost 50 years of age. Then I began to see that God loves and will redeem His entire creation. I even looked at things just as you do for nearly a decade as I reveled in the “there is no law” doctrines of A. E. Knoch and the Concordant Publishing Concern. I thought Christ had died to sin so I could wallow in sin with no fear of judgment. I have since learned that “grace chastens us to forsake ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live Godly lives in this present age” (Tit 2:11-12). Grace therefore is far more than an inactive noun. It is a super active verb, with which the Lord chastens those who He loves. 

Heb 12:6  For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Grace is a wonderful doctrine, but when its chastening function is left out of God’s Word, and all we hear is “Neither do I condemn thee” at the exclusion of “Go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon thee”, then that half- truth has just become “God’s own strong delusion” and the very “smooth things” which everyone in the world wants to hear:

Isa 30:9  That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Isa 30:10  Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

It is all of God, “all things after the counsel of His own will” (Eph 1:11). God had a plan in place before he created the first man, and that plan included the creation of a sinning machine called Adam. All in Adam are “vessels of clay which are marred in the Potter’s hand” for the purpose of causing us to sin, to come to see our sinful composition, to cry out for deliverance, to give an accounting of the deeds done in the flesh, and to be delivered out of that sinful condition and into the glorious light of God’s Truth and His Fatherly, chastening love for all of His Adamic creatures.

Here are but a few more verses for your consideration before you reply to this e- mail telling me how embarrassing I am to myself, and how little credibility I have for mentioning all of this:

Gen 45:4  And Joseph said unto his brethren, Come near to me, I pray you. And they came near. And he said, I [ am] Joseph your brother, whom ye sold into Egypt.
Gen 45:5  Now therefore be not grieved, nor angry with yourselves, that ye sold me hithe r: for God did send me before you to preserve life.
Gen 45:6  For these two years [ hath] the famine [ been] in the land: and yet [ there are] five years, in the which [ there shall] neither [ be] earing nor harvest.
Gen 45:7  And God sent me before you to preserve you a posterity in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
Gen 45:8  So now it was not you that sent me hither, but God: and he hath made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.
Exo 4:21  And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his [ Pharaoh’s] heart, that he shall not let the people go.
1Sa 16:14  But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15  And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
Job 42:11  Then came there unto him [ Job] all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.
Psa 51:5  Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Pro 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
Pro 16:4  The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Pro 20:24  Man’s goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Isa 45:6  That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [ there is] none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 63:17  O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants’ sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.
Jer 10:23  O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps
Jer 18:4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Amo 3:6  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Does the spirit in the New Testament also teach that “all things”, good and evil are the workings of God Himself? As a matter of fact it does:

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Being unaware of all these verses of scripture, you make this statement:

This is a very good question. I pray you are given to receive what God has to say to you in answer right here in this same epistle where Paul condemns homosexual actions. It is just six chapters later:

Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16  If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [ it is] good.
Rom 7:17  Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19  For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21  I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

In complete accord with Pro 16:1, with Isa 45:7, 63:17, Amo 3:6, and all the other verses quoted above, Paul is here telling us twice, just as Joseph twice told his brothers, that their evil deeds were not their evil deeds, but the work of God. Paul says his sins are the result of “sin that dwells in me… that is in my flesh”.

How did it get there? By Paul’s free will? Are our sins because of our free will? Absolutely not:

Rom 7:15  For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Paul tells us that our sins, like his sins, are the result of “a law working in his members bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” Whence this law of sin?

Jas 4:12  There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

We do not condemn our brothers, but we do judge the actions of “those that are within” so as to keep a “little leaven from leavening the whole lump”.

1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 5:1  It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
1Co 5:2  And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3  For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1Co 5:6  Your glorying [ is] not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
1Co 5:7  Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Then, again, the holy spirit condemns homosexual activity, again in the very next chapter, where we are instructed to judge matters within the body of Christ.

1Co 6:1  Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
1Co 6:4  If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Co 6:5  I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
1Co 6:6  But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
1Co 6:7  Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather [ suffer yourselves to] be defrauded?
1Co 6:8  Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that [ your] brethren.
1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

As I pointed out earlier, adultery is placed before homosexuality in the listing of sins to be overcome. Nevertheless, both are perversions which will be burned out of us through God’s chastening grace.

You asked me:

I think Rom 7 and Rom 9 have both demonstrated that God’s plan for each of us does not depend upon us or our fabled “free will” but rather upon God who will have all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, and not just believers but specially them that believe” (1Ti 2:4 and 4:10). But this will only be accomplished in us all through the fire of God’s Words which condemn both the adultery and homosexuality which He has place in our members.
Look at this verse of God’s Word concerning His creation:

Rom 8:20  For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,

I would encourage you to spend a couple more hours reading After The Counsel of His Own Will. It is located in the ‘Essential Reading’ section in the upper left corner of the iswasandwillbe. com home page.
It is a grave mistake to attempt to make truth relevant to the times we live in. Sin has always been sin, and it has never depended upon the historical context in which it is given. The same apostle who condemns both adultery and men with men and women with women doing that which is unseemly in Rom 1, tells us that it is not us that do it but sin that is in our members by means of the law of sin that works in our members.
But just to answer your question about whether we are then expected to give an accounting, the very same apostle make this statement:

1Co 3:13  Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Gal 6:7  Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

The unjust steward was forgiven his debt, but he still had to “given an accounting of his stewardship” and so will we all. If we simply cannot understand that truth then God’s simple answer to us is “hath not the Potter the power over the clay to make one vessel, [ our last Adam] to honor, and another [ our first vessel of clay] to dishonor”.

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [ it], Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Just for the record, I actually consider myself to be “chief of sinners”, not you or Mr. Brentlinger. Where we differ is in this idea of God not condemning sin in His own sinful creation. You have ask me specifically”

So it is manifestly stated that you do not think that God creates evil, or at least as I understand what you have said here, you do not believe that “perfect divinity” would create anything that would be evil, sinful, or worthy of His own condemnation. Am I understanding you right? If not, then please let me know.
I have shown you in Genesis, 45, and then again Rom 7, and in Rom 9 that God did just that with Joseph’s brothers, and then later with Pharaoh, both as mere types and shadows of us all in these “vessels of clay”.

Jer 18:4  And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [ it].

God has made us as “marred” sinning machines who will “reap what we sow”, then be destroyed and then be given life through that destruction, and through those whose “old man” was destroyed before us.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Those in the lake of fire are the multitudes who come to Christ, but cannot deny sin in their lives in this age. It will be “through your mercy [ the mercy of God’s elect who are counted worthy to be in that “blessed and holy first resurrection] they also may obtain mercy.”

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

God loved me even when I was a slave to my flesh. He loved me so much that He chastened me and “crushed me to powder, through His wrath to forsake ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live a godly life in this age”.

Tit 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12  Teaching [ Greek, paideuo, chastening] us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [ Greek, aion, age]

I pray God will give you a love of His Truth which will give you a hunger for the strong meat of His Word. It is not smooth or popular, but it is the Truth and it is the voice of the True shepherd.

Joh 10:4  And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Please read The Purpose and Function of Grace on iswasandwillbe. com

Your brother who is praying that we both come to know the voice of the true shepherd of the sheep,

Mike

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