Are We Robots or Clay?

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Are We Robots or Clay?

Hi H____,

Thank you for getting back to me.

It is good to see that we agree that God is working all things after the counsel of His own will. I do not want to get distracted on prophecy or personal revelations. I will deal only with whether we have free will, which is what we are discussing.

While you cannot deny the scriptures teach that God is working all things after the counsel of His own will and not ours, you still insist that our will is free of His will when you say:

My question for you is where is any verse, just one will do, “allowing for people to have a will free of God’s will”? Where is any hint of ‘free will’ in making and breaking a pot? That is the very point God is making when He calls us nothing more than “vessels of… clay… marred in [His] hands”. He did not even claim to have made an unmarred vessel with free will which caused it to ‘fall’ from being created perfect. He is telling us that we are “marred… in The Potter’s hand“, not by any virtue of a supposed ‘free will’.

Eve sinned of “all that is in the world” before she ever touched the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Here is what John tells us:

1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, 1) the lust of the flesh, and 2) the lust of the eyes, and 3) the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

“Is not of the Father” does not mean that God does not create evil, and He tells us He does in Isa 45:7, what it means is this is not the end product of “the new man.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

There is the end product that is “after [their] image. Not “the first man Adam [who was never from] before the world began [intended to] inherit the kingdom of God (1Co 15:50).

Now notice how those three categories of sins, listed here in 1Jo 2:16 encompassing “all that is in the world”, perfectly correlate in the very same order with the first sins ever committed:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was 1) good for food [the lust of the flesh], 2) and that it was pleasant to the eyes [the lust of the eyes] and 3) a tree to be desired to make one wise [the pride of life], she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Nakedness is a Biblical symbol for sinfulness, and Eve, who came out of Adam, had lusted after its fruit for food, had lusted after the appearance of the forbidden tree, and she had lusted after the knowledge of good and evil that it would give to her. She did all of this before actually eating of the fruit of the tree, because she was “made subject to vanity… marred in the Potter’s hand”, and incapable of doing what was in obedience to the law of the spirit of life because of her corruptible composition, and not because of becoming that way afterward. All eating of the tree did was to make her aware that she was already naked. She did not become naked because she ate of the tree.

That is Paul’s point in Romans 7 when he tells us “it is not I that [sin], but sin that dwells… in my members”. That is what the scriptures teach. Nowhere is man ever held responsible or accountable for his sins, and that is why neither of those words are to be found in scripture. We are all accountants who will “give an accounting” of our own nakedness, but nowhere does God ever say we are accountable or responsible for the corruption and nakedness into which He has placed us from birth:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. [corruption is equated with flesh and blood], not with bad choices which are the natural product of a corrupt, dying creation]

Adam, we are told, was dying from the moment he was created, just as we are:

Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it–dying thou dost die. (YLT)

That is the proper Hebrew tense which agrees with the rest of scripture telling us that flesh and blood were never intended to be “the new man”, which was never even intended to be put on at the first. The “new man” was always, from the beginning, prepared to be put on only after the holy spirit came to make us “after the image of Him that created him”.

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Read what the Lord Himself is telling us about how He is working His own will in our lives:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay [Adam, you and I] was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel [the new man], as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. [Clay has no ‘free will’ and that is the very point the Lord is making]
Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

You say:

If you are inclined to believe I am a Calvinist, then you just do not know who I am. I have at every opportunity pointed out that Calvin had Michael Sevetus burned alive at the stake, and had his tongue cut out first to keep him from denying the false doctrine of God being a trinity. I take every opportunity to point out that ‘double predestination’ makes God a monster of unfathomable depravity who would predestine most of mankind to literal flames of fire for all eternity. To predestine anyone to such monstrous evil is to blaspheme the name of a loving heavenly Father who through Christ will make alive all who have died in Adam:

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

That is what scriptures teach, and that is what I teach. That is the Biblical equation we are all given: “As in Adam… So in Christ…”

None of us had the supposed ‘free will’ to choose whether we wanted to come into this world “in Adam”. That, as with “His own will… in all things”, was thrust upon all of us. No vote was taken, no questions were asked. We are just here in the corruption that is this dying flesh, which was never even intended to enter into the kingdom of God:

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Now here are the verses which you apparently just “cannot hear”:

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times [after the great white throne judgement in a lake of fire] he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

You make Paul, and those who believe him, out to be exclusionary and elitists because he says “we have obtained an inheritance [because we have been] predestinated according to the purpose of HIM who is working all things [especially the will of all mankind] after the counsel of HIS OWN will”. To wit:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works [not of our free will], but of him that calleth😉
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? [Your answer, right here in this e-mail is that if that is true, and the children did not have free will then you say ‘Yes indeed, there is unrighteousness with God’ But what does the holy spirit teach us?] God forbid.

There is the scripture giving the lie to your unscriptural doctrine, which is common to most all Christian churches except the monstrous double predestination Calvinists. So what does the holy spirit teach us if indeed our days, as the days of Jacob and Esau, were all written in God’s predestinated book before any of those days existed? That is what the scriptures teach, not just of Jacob and Esau, but of all of us:

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them. [just like Jacob and Esau, and Pharaoh, etc.]

Here is the Biblical answer to that question, and the answer further reveals the lie that is the doctrine of free moral agency. Here is what the Bible actually teaches from Genesis to Revelation. In spite of all the reasonings of men to the contrary, this is the Biblical Truth. This immediately follows the Truth that Jacob’s and Esau’s lives were predestined, just as are all lives of all men:

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Now God may well have ‘hardened your heart’ against every word the holy spirit has inspired here in Romans 9, and you apparently have been sent an “evil spirit from the Lord” (1Sa 16:14) which has convinced you that our salvation really IS of him that wills and of him that runs, and that God’s mercy really does depend on whether we will of our own free will choose Him. Maybe “an evil spirit from the Lord” has lied to you and has convinced you that Paul left out a very important element in how God deals with us, and therefore He has mercy only on those who will choose of their own free will to be shown that mercy, and God that would never harden any man’s heart or make anyone to err against His ways or harden their hearts against His fear unless they of their own free will chose to reject His mercy.

After all, you have told me that God does not create evil or make the wicked for the day of evil, because you say, “If God creates evil then God is evil’.

But is that what the scriptures teach? No, you are fighting against the Word of God, which, as you point out, is Jesus Christ Himself. It is He who tells us the exact opposite of what you teach with your false doctrine of God giving man a will free of His own will. Here are the inspired words of the holy spirit, and this is not the first time I have pointed these verses out to you:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

There it is. Darkness, a spiritual type of sin and corruption, is “formed” by God. And lest we miss the point, He goes on to make clear:

“I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” And your retort is that ‘If God creates evil then He is evil”. That is contrary to what the holy spirit teaches, when it declares “God forbid”. Yet mere men accuse Him of ‘being evil’ if indeed He does with Pharaoh, Jacob and Esau, Adam and Eve, and all of their descendants “all things [He did to them] after the counsel of His own will”.

You do not believe that God created flesh as corruption that was never intended to inherit the kingdom of God. You quote the verses which declare His creation as “good” as if that meant that God’s plan to have all saved through the evil and unjust crucifixion of Christ “before the world began” (2Ti 1:9 and Tit 1:2); that God Himself is evil for coming up with such a plan “before the world began”. To you the fact that we are told this was all planned “before the world began”, reveals nothing of what God knew about what Adam and Eve would do, or what any of their descendants would do, because they had not yet exercised their supposed free will. But 1Co 15:50, and the entirety of scripture reveal that “the first man Adam”, like Pharaoh, and like “the first man Adam” in all of us, was raised up and “made to be taken and destroyed”.

2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Sodom will yet “return to her former estate”, and that will happen when the Jews who rejected their Savior will also return to their former estate. This will all take place, not because of, but in spite of your doctrine of mankind being given a will free of the will of God:

Eze 16:53 When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

The salvation of Sodom and Samaria is the product of God working the great white throne judgment after the counsel of His own will to bring all things in heaven and in earth to Himself so He can be “all in all”. That is the truly good news of scripture, which hinges on God working all things after the counsel of His own will.

If indeed we were “called in Christ before the world began”, then it is manifested that God knew “before the world began” that Adam and Eve would do exactly what they did, and that mankind would need a Savior whom He had already prepared. This is not a plan B, as you teach, rather it is the predestined process of bringing all of mankind through a body of dying, sinful corruption through a fiery judgment, into purified spiritual bodies in which “all in Adam, each in his own order” (1Co 15:22-23) will inherit the kingdom of God:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end [fruits], when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power [via those who are at home in the lake of fire, Isa 33:14]
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

As long as one person is still dead, then death has not yet been destroyed. Eternal hell fire is not even in the equation because that is not the wages of sin. Here is where God and His Son are going with their predestined plan:

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he [the Father] saith all things are put under him [Christ], it is manifest that he [the Father] is excepted, which did put all things under him [Christ].
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him [Christ], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [the Father, [so much for a co-equal triune God head] that put all things under him [Christ], that God [the Father] may be all in all.

This is the truth about the God head as revealed earlier in this same epistle:

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and [besides the one God the Father there is also] one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The destruction of death and God the Father being all in all is the goal of God’s plan for mankind. That truly is very good news, and it is the truth of the scriptures. It is not dependent upon our choices being free from the will of God. So then, contrary to your doctrine and the doctrine of the vast majority of the churches of this world, our salvation “is not of him that wills, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy”. Therefore He has mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Mankind’s fabeled will free from the constraints of God’s will to either show mercy toward, or to harden our hearts, is an illusion and a false doctrine. What the scriptures teach is that everything that is done is all being done only “after the counsel of His own will” (Eph 1:11). Read it again and believe “that which is written”:

Rom 9:16 So then it [being “the children of God’, verse 8] is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

These words appear only two chapters after this very same message on a more personal level:

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I [with my fabled free will] that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my [“marred in the hand of The Potter”] flesh,) dwelleth no good thing [because God created it of dust, not perfected spirit, it was a “very good… body of corruption”]: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not [I am not free to do good, rather I was created “under the law… of sin and death… not made for a righteous man but for the lawless” 1Ti 1:9-10]
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.[because I have no free will]
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it [of my will], but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law [place in my members by the “one lawgiver”], that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. [because I have no will of my own, “it is not I that do it”]
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [It will be “God’s mercy… not of him that wills”]
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord [who is working all things after the counsel of His own will]. So then [because it was God’s will to show His mercy towards me, Rom 9:16) with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I pray the Lord will deliver you of the false spirits He has sent to lead you to reject these, His words.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul’s servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

I understand you believe that if those verses are true that therefore God Himself is evil, but that is not the mind of Christ on that subject.That is the reasoning of your carnal mind and the minds of most who believe on Christ but “cannot hear [His] Words”

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

If you cannot then this is why. These are just a couple more verses which God has not given you and the vast majority of the Christians eyes or ears to receive:

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants’ sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. [This is on a personal level what Paul said in Rom 9:16-18, which you reject]

And here is yet another verse which you say makes God evil:

Eze 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Over the years I have learned that I am totally helpless to make straight what the Lord has made crooked. Here again is another verse which you say makes God Himself to be crooked:

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God [who “creates evil”]: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

We are told by the holy spirit that Adam’s “very good… flesh and blood… [was in reality a “very good”] corruptible body” which was never intended to inherit the kingdom of God. Rather we are told that it was always intended that it is only through dying to this life in these corruptible, and vile bodies that we will ever know life:

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat [“vessel of clay…all in Adam”] fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

In Adam we are indeed ‘very good’ vile bodies, just as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was a “good” tree of the knowledge of good and evil and just as “His hand formed [the] very good… crooked serpent, [and a] very good… waster to destroy”.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Isaiah 14 is addressed to “the king of Babylon”, not to Satan (Isa 14:4), and Eze 28 is addressed to the king of Tyre. Both men “have said in [their] hearts [they] are gods”, but they are only men.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

That is the “cherub that sinned”, as you put it. “Yet [he was] a man”.

Neither one is Satan, and therefore Satan was not made perfect. Rather, God’s hand formed the crooked serpent and “made the waster [for the express purpose] to destroy”:

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

But none of this can possibly get through to you because you tell me:

Looking at your picture it is apparent that I am a little older than you are, and I have learned over the years in dealing with others, that when “the Lord has shown [you]” something, then the chances of having a productive conversation concerning what the scriptures actually teach is slim to impossible. I do not deny that “the Lord has shown you a jigsaw puzzle quite different from the one He has shown me,” because He tells you and me that the reason He spoke in parables was to keep the multitudes from seeing the truth, and that He never intended for the multitudes who came to Him to understand the mysteries of the kingdom of God. The very “Jews that believed on Him” were “not given” to hear His words, and that was the only reason given us for why they “could not hear”:

Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

But why does Christ say they were “the servants of sin”? Does He tell them and teach us that it was because of their free will to reject or accept Him? I think you know better than that. Here is why they were the servants of sin…:

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. [Because God Himself “made [him] the waster to destroy… from the beginning Job 26:13 and Isa 54:16]
Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

…Because Christ is telling us the truth, that the multitudes “cannot hear [His] words”. That is the Biblical reason we are given for why the multitudes of the Christian world, to this day, believe on Christ, but they “cannot hear His Word”. Why is it they cannot hear His words? Is it because they are not making the right choice of their own free will? No, as Christ has just declared, that is not the reason! Let’s go back to why He spoke in parables to the multitudes who came to him and who believed on Him and who ate His loaves and fishes, and let’s ask God to just give us the ability to believe what He tells us is the reason why we do or do not believe on Him.

Here is that reason He reveals to be “the truth [He] is telling us [which we] cannot [just naturally of our own supposed free will] hear”:

Mat 13:1 The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.
Mat 13:2 And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Now why are we told “this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed”? Are we told they chose of their own free will to have dull hearing and closed eyes? Look closely with open eyes and open ears at what we are being told by our Lord Himself is the reason that “this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed”:

Here it is again in case you missed it. I myself missed it for decades: “lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.” In other words Christ had no intention of healing them of their spiritual blindness and spiritual deafness. This all accords with what Christ had just said:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Christ’s words here accord with His words in Romans 9 where we are told “it is not of him that wills… but of God who shows mercy or hardeneth”. These words also accord with Christ’s words in John 8 where He tells these same multitudes who come to Him and who believed on Him and who eat His loaves and fishes:

Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Yet it appears from this e-mail, which is in response to an earlier exchange we had, that you and the whole Christian world refuse to relinquish the throne of God, in the temple of God, by clinging to your supposed free will to either accept or reject Christ. Of course we all do make that choice, but let us be very careful not be found calling our Lord a liar when He tells us this Truth:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

As always there is never even a reference to our supposed ‘free will”. It is all “after the counsel of His own will”, the only truly ‘free will’ in the universe.

That word ‘draw’ is translated from:

G1670
ἑλκύω, ἕλκω
helkuō helkō
hel-koo’-o, hel’-ko
Probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively): – draw. Compare G1667.
Total KJV occurrences: 8

That word is defined as “to drag”. Here are a couple of examples of how the holy spirit uses this word. These verses demonstrate what ‘helkuo’ really means:

Joh 21:10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.
Joh 21:11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

Fish do not of their own free will just wiggle up out of the sea into a net. Peter had to drag that net to land full of great fishes. Those fish came to the true Shepherd just as any and all of us, kicking as screaming against their will. “No man can come to [Christ] except the spirit drag him against his own will.” And that is the way it is to this day when we finally do come to the Truth. I myself fought against these words of Christ in Matthew 13, John 8, Romans 9, Proverbs 16, Isaiah 47, Amos 3, etc. etc. I really did not want to give up my place on Christ’s throne in my heart, by relinquishing my phantom free will, but it had to go in the light of the scriptures.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

The holy spirit goes so far as to deal directly with your blasphemous contention that if God creates evil then therefore He is evil, right here in the very next words of Romans 9. I mean no offence, but if that is untrue, then it is blasphemous, and it is manifestly untrue because:

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me [this is right after telling us that God hated Esau before He was born and that He raised Pharaoh up for the very purpose of destroying him], Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

All the commentaries agree that this verse is a reference to this truth found in Chronicles:

2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?

What now is the holy spirit’s answer to your question, and that of the bulk of Christianity, that if God is working all things after the counsel of His own will, and if He is making all things for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of evil, and if indeed He had the lives of Jacob and Esau predestined while they were in their mother’s womb, having done neither good nor evil, and if He really did raise Pharaoh up just to destroy him (Pro 16:4), then “Why does he yet find fault?”

Here is the answer of the holy spirit to that foolish and uninformed question from those who have “not be given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God”:

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Yet your answer is:

Yes, indeed, and that is exactly what God does with mankind. We are not robots, we are mere clay pots, marred in the hand of The Master Potter:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. [Where is free will in any of this?]

But where does the holy spirit go with all of this revelation of the mind of God? It goes right back where it has always been, on plan A:

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay [all mankind, “all in Adam”], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

That is the same question God asks Israel back in Jeremiah 18, the answer being obvious to all, because God’s will is not dependent upon us for our salvation. God makes a vessel of dishonor in the first Adam in us all, with the intention from the beginning to redeem that dishonorable, corruption from that dishonorable, corruptible composition, and through fiery trials upon all men of all time, to judge us and to cause us to choose to become “a new man… the second man Adam” made in the true “image of Him that created him”. God’s plan extends to all who are in Adam, and not one person will be claimed permanently by death, which is the wages of sin (Rom 6:23).

Your final paragraph I will comment on is:

I think I have made it abundantly clear that I do not “know Adam exercised freewill”. I have already dealt with your contention that if God made Adam, Esau, Pharaoh, or you or me to sin that therefore His is evil, is a very bad position to take according to Romans 9:

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Christ demonstrated for us that none of us can come to Him unless the spirit drags us to Him. Christ himself told us that we cannot hear His words unless it is given to us to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God.

I have rather demonstrated with the scriptures themselves that Adam was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected Adam to vanity in hope.

Hope that is not seen is not hope that is uncertain. The promises of God are sure and certain, but until the redemption of the purchased possession is in hand, we are sealed with the spirit and still hope for it.

Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first [first, not only] trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest [Greek: arrhabōn – downpayment] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Does God admonish us to repent of our sins? Of course He does, because He is in the process of “making man in His image”:

Gen 1:27 And creating is the Elohim humanity in His image. In the image of the Elohim He creates it. Male and female He creates them. (CLV)

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

It was “the new man” who from the beginning was intended to bear “the image of Him that created him”, not the first man Adam. And you contend that “mankind was hijacked”. I mean no offence, but that is utter unscriptural heresy!

The fact that “the first man”, Adam makes choices, as Jeremiah points out, in no way denies that he was not predestined to choose the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before choosing the tree of life as “the new man… in the image of Him that created him”.

Here are the next three verses of Jeremiah 18:

Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Where in those three verses is anything denying that we are all but mere clay in The Potter’s hand? Yes, indeed, we are not robots, we are but mere clay in the hand of the Potter, and we have no right to ask, “Why have you made me thus… the wicked for the day of evil”. Where is there anything in those verses which denies, whether we repent or we forebear to repent, that it is “God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure”? Of course there is nothing anywhere in scripture which declares that one must have free will to love God. That is a lie which would have us all asking “Why have you made me thus”.

Is there anywhere is scripture that you can point to and say with the clarity of this verse, that the opposite is true, and the scriptures teach clearly the opposite of what is said in this verse of scripture?

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For [Greek: gar – because] it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Is not Php 2:12 saying the same thing as Jer 18:8-10? Of course it is. But why do we will to do anything we do? The Biblical answer is in verse 12, and it has nothing to do with a fabled ‘free will of mankind’. Rather it has everything to do with “work[ing] all things after the counsel of His own will”, in spite of our will.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

So when we do exercise our will, it is God that works that in us. And when we do anything we will to do, that, too, is God working in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure after the counsel of His own will, and independent of anything we may happen to desire contrary to His will:

2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee? [Least of all our individual will]

I thank you for taking the time to address much of what I pointed out. But if after reading all of this you are of the same persuasion and you are not saying ‘Wow, I did not know that’, as I did when these verses were first pointed out to me, then we really are listening to two different Christs, and it is fruitless to carry on. So only if that is the case, then please take me off your list, and we will both continue to live out the days God has already written in our books (Psa 139:16 ASV).

In the only sovereign Christ and His Father,

Mike

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