Are We Perfected In The Flesh?
S____ wrote:
Mike,
Thanks so much for your reply and the time you put into it for my sake.
Yes, I do agree with what you said about Christ's flesh. From what you are saying, I think that "the likeness of sinful flesh" means that he was literally in real, weak flesh subject to all the temptations we have, but never actually sinned like us. Basically he came in the likeness of sinful US, without being LIKE us, in that he never sinned and we do though he had the same flesh. Sometimes it can be hard to put into words, but I see what you are saying.
That is what I meant by "he resembled us, without being like us" though I said it in a bad way. He was in the weakness of sinful flesh just like us, and overcame. But he was not like us, in that he never trespassed against God. Is that what you were getting at?
That shows that having the Spirit "in full measure" is why he never actually committed trespass though he had weakness of flesh. Otherwise, if that were not the case, the flesh could right itself, without the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for your words. Much love,
S____
Mike Vinson wrote:
Yes, S____, that is exactly what I meant. The only way Christ was not like us, was that he never sinned. I was hoping that that was what you meant, too, and it is gratifying to find out that we are on the same Biblical page.
Mike
S____ wrote:
Definitely. I wanted to clarify too, why I brought up the thing about the sheep and Jesus and how the sheep were types of Christ without being like him. It stemmed from a conversation I had about Adam and Jesus, and how Adam was a type of Jesus to come. People, as I am sure you know, believe Adam to have been a spiritual man. Adam, of course, was of the dust of the earth, and naked and carnal as can be. The spiritual man cannot sin, as Apostle John said.So I mentioned to the person that just because something is a type of something else, doesn't mean that it is LIKE that something else. Sheep for example go "baa baa" and Jesus saves the world. Big difference.So in that way, Jesus was a type of us. He was born into the weak flesh, to be a type of us, and his death on the cross is a type of the crucifixion of our old man. But Jesus being a type of us, does not mean he was LIKE us, in that he did not walk in our ways.Thank you for helping me clarify that, because I have discovered that some people actually believe Jesus didn't suffer on the cross, because his flesh was only a mirage. Totally false, and I want my language to communicate clearly. Thanks for getting back to me.In Christ,S____
Good morning S____,
I see now where you were coming from, and I now see in what sense you were pointing out that Christ differs from us. The example of Romans 5:14, of Adam being a figure of Christ, makes your point very clearly.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
This and the brazen serpent are both types of Christ who heals us of our marred conditions and composition. Christ was "made sin" in being "made of a woman made under the law."
But that does not mean that He was that venomous serpent or that He was guilty of Adam's transgressions.
Both Adam and the serpent are His creation and are "very good" types and shadows of Christ. But they are not the "very image" of the things to come as Christ was the "very image" of His father.
Both Adam and the serpent are His creation and are "very good" types and shadows of Christ. But they are not the "very image" of the things to come as Christ was the "very image" of His father.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things , can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The law has a shadow of good things to come, but the law is not the very image of the good things. Likewise Adam was a shadow and a figure of Christ, but Adam was not the very image of Christ. There is a big difference between a type, a shadow and a figure, and being the "very image of the things to come." Christ was the "express image" of His father because He never sinned, even though he was "made sin," made corruptible flesh, made of a woman, made under the law... yet without sin."
I would like to point out however, that when John said that "he that is born of God cannot sin because His seed remains in Him..." he is not speaking only of a resurrected body. John goes on to say " Now are we the sons of God..."
I would like to point out however, that when John said that "he that is born of God cannot sin because His seed remains in Him..." he is not speaking only of a resurrected body. John goes on to say " Now are we the sons of God..."
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
"Doth not commit sin" is not the sum of God's Word on the lives of the sons of God. Here is how "doth not commit sin is to be understood:
Here are several verses in Romans six which say the same thing John is saying in 1 John 3:9:1 Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1 Pet 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
The Lord knows that I have "suffered in the flesh," and yet I, like Paul and Peter and John, must confess that I am "not yet perfect, neither count I myself to have attained."
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [Greek - are being perfected], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
So even now we don't "continue in sin," and we are "dead to sin."
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
All of this is aorist tense in the Greek. Our old man is being crucified with Him. We are dying daily to that old man of sin, son of perdition, beast within, "That henceforth we should not serve sin." John was not teaching perfection of the flesh when he said "he that is born of God cannot sin." What the sum of God's word shows us is that 'he that is born of God does not serve sin... does not live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." Paul goes on in Romans six to say:
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
That can and is misunderstood as teaching that we can and are perfected in the flesh. Look at the rest of this chapter:
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We are to "reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin, crucified with Him, baptized unto His death, freed from sin." Paul goes on explaining what all this means:
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Is all of this a doctrine of perfection in the flesh or is it an admonition to die daily? Paul continues to make his point, whatever that point is:
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Knowing just how frequently the Greek 'aorist' tense is wrongfully translated into the English 'present' tense helps us to see just how easy it is to miss what Paul and Peter and John clearly understood as the progressive process of salvation. None of God's Word teaches perfection of flesh. All of God's word teaches us of a process taking place in this flesh which culminates in perfection of spirit through death and resurrection from among the dead.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
"Being made free from sin" does not say 'having been made free from sin." Being" denotes a process of salvation through "dying daily" to the flesh. Likewise "doth not commit sin" accords with what Peter and Paul both mean by saying "hath ceased from sin" and "is free from sin" respectively. John himself tells us:
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin [Greek present tense, not aorist tense], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned [perfect tense], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
John, of course, is not contradicting himself. What he is saying throughout his epistles is that those who name the name of Christ ought to be living in accord with the spirit of Christ which is the words of Christ:
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
I hope you find this edifying and receive it in the spirit in which is given.
Mike
Mike
S____ wrote:Hi S____,
Hi Mike,
Sorry I didn't get back to you on this sooner. I agree with what you said. When I say I am dead to sin, I relate that passage from Romans 6, to the very next chapter, Romans 7. This is one of the most misunderstood chapters of the Bible. Paul is describing in that chapter what Christ sets us free from. It is not the Law that that is unrighteous, but the sin in our flesh puts us in disagreement with a command like "Do not covet."
Before Christ, I was a wretched man in that I could not stop swearing. I relate that to Paul's example in Romans 7. I knew it was bad to swear, and the command to have a clean mouth was good, but sin took the opportunity through the command to increase. Oh, what a wretched man, who will save me from this body of sin? Praise the Lord, now there is no condemnation for those in Christ.
Christ has freed me from this body of sin. But not only has he freed me, he is still freeing me. My total subjection to sin, as described in Romans 7 is indeed done with. I am no longer in slavery to things that held me in slavery.
But once someone is born, they must also grow. The very fact that God MUST chastise every Son, shows that Sons are not perfect at birth, but must grow beyond babehood, by grace.
So I see moving on to perfection as much like running the race to the finish. It is something to shoot for, something to aim for, even if not attained now. Hope that is seen is not hope right?
S____
I see nothing here with which I do not agree.
Perfection cannot be attained here simply because we are still that "marred vessel... shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin."
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.It takes relinquishing this "vessel of clay" to be perfected.
Only then can we count ourselves to be perfected and apprehend that for which we have been apprehended.
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [I do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect [Greek- 'are being perfected' ], be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Mike
