Were The Apostles Converted At The Lord's Supper? When Are We
Why God's Elect Are Hated Of All Men
Posted January 23, 2006
I just finished reading your essay on the New Testament "method" of interpreting the Scriptures. Good stuff. I have believed in this method for some 15 years, having observed the same things that you note in this essay. Alas, I have been in a bit of a quandary for about the same amount of time as to how to make application of this knowledge. Also, I came to similar conclusions regarding Israel, some 20 years ago; although, about five years ago I began to back-peddle on that, having been influenced by the likes of G.H. Lang, Robert Govett, G.H. Pember and others. Thanks for reminding me of these things.
On another matter, I'm now studying your essay on the doctrine of the trinity. I don't mean to be picky or quarrelsome, but you said: "The apostles knew Christ outwardly in the flesh for 3 1/2 years without even being converted. (Luk 22:32). They had baptized more disciples than John (Joh 4:2), cast out demons (Luk 10:17) and healed the sick (Luk 10:9), yet Christ tells Peter in Luk 22:32 that he has never even been converted."
While I don't think it affects your doctrine significantly, I believe it is mistaken to think that the apostles had not been converted. It seems to me that they must have been converted at least by the time of Luk 22:32 (although probably much earlier in Christ's earthly ministry), for, from my perspective, at least, it seems that Jesus confirms to them this very thing (except with respect to Judas), starting in John 13 and through John 15, and perhaps later. John 13 takes place in the general time frame of the Lord's Supper (which John does not detail for us). Here Jesus tells the apostles, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you" (vs 10). Unless I miss my mark, the bathing is what we receive when we first believe in Christ, when we are baptized into Him; the washing of our feet is the cleansing we receive each time we confess our sins, a cleansing that is needed from our walk with Christ in this world.
Later on, after Judas had left, Jesus told the disciples, "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I . . . in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches . . ." (Joh 15:3-5). Indeed, as I read the verse you cited, Luk 22:32), it seems to me Jesus acknowledges Peter's faith in Him; in my translation, Jesus is seen as praying that his existing faith would not fail him, commanding him with a view to the fact that he know his faith indeed will fail him, that when he has turned back to that place of abiding in Him he would strengthen the brethren.
I could be mistaken, and I'm certainly open to correction on this matter.
Greetings again I____,
I have written a paper on this subject entitled 'Will God's Strong Delusion Deceive You?' Being "sanctified in Christ, called to be saints" (1Co 1:2) is a long way from the 'conversion' the apostles experienced after they had waited, or as the KJV puts it "tarried 50 days in Jerusalem." Physical Jerusalem is symbolic of the 'harlot' system out of which God's "few... [converted] chosen" are picked. Apparently all Christians spend 50 days in 'that great city" after their calling," before they are converted and able to withstand her doctrine with no fear of the consequences. That is the 'conversion' Christ referred to. It was only after receiving the spirit of God that there was a change in all the apostles. At that point they were willing to die with their Lord.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
These are symbolic words that tell us that it always has, and always will be the case, that God's "chosen," His "elect," will always be persecuted by His called but not chosen.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and tomorrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
In other words we actually have two callings. And we have two 'baptisms.' First, right after we apply the blood to our 'door post,' we are baptized in the water of the Red Sea. Every new Christian is excited about the journey he has begun. It is accompanied by the blessings that all immature children receive. At this point of our walk, it seems that our Father will do anything for us. We have been given a burden while in 'Egypt' that causes us to cry out to Him. We will even experience the first few plagues of Egypt just so that He has our undivided attention. But then He protects us while He plagues our enemies. At this point of our walk, He parts the Red Sea as we experience our first miraculous baptism. It seems that we have been delivered and our enemies are all destroyed and lie at our feet as the Egyptians did at the feet of Israel on the shores of the Red Sea. Here is the New Testament version of this scene:
Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord,even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
This is not even the adolescent period of our walk with our Lord and Master. Gifts of the Spirit are nothing in the sight of God in comparison with "the fruit of the spirit." That part, agape love, does not come till after we experience our second baptism in the Jordan, immediately followed by our circumcision. Until we arrive at the Jordan yet uncircumcised in heart, we will be miraculously fed on manna every day. And yet we will rebel time after time because even though we are "sanctified in Christ and called to be saints... [we] are "yet carnal."
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [but not yet 'chosen.' in fact "yet carnal"] to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
And what does Paul tell these "called to be saints," Corinthians?:
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am]of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
In four verses Paul four times assures these Christians, who consider themselves the very elect, "Ye are yet carnal."
It is strong delusion only that has the Christian world teaching that the "called" are the same as the "chosen." Everything I have enumerated above is, according to God's Word, typical of us and "happened unto them and it is written for our admonition..."
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples [Greek -tupos-typical of us]: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
This verse says that all these things happened to them "for our admonition." Yet the entire Christian world has the attitude of Korah:
Num 16:1 Now Korah... took men:
Num 16:2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
Num 16:3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, everyone of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD?
God had sent Korah and the leaders of Israel "strong delusion." They "for our admonition" believed that there was no difference between the called and the chosen. They could see no reason why there should be a group of Christians "chosen out of all the tribes of Israel" to serve God" in a capacity not given to the others who were "called" but not "chosen." Such a situation always has and always will bring on hatred from 'Joseph's brothers' and the "famous in the congregation, men of renown."
"Ye take too much upon you," was what Joseph heard, it was what Moses heard, it was what Christ heard, it was what Paul heard, and it is what the elect of every generation have and always will hear, from those who believe that "all the congregation is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them." Have they not put the blood on their door post and crossed the Red Sea? Are they not gathering manna six days and preparing twice as much on the sixth day? Do they not cast out demons and heal the sick? Is not the Lord among them?
No one in His right mind denies that "the Lord is among them." No one denies that they do "many wonderful works." They can preach sermons that "call down fire from heaven in the sight of men." But they cannot bring themselves to agree with their Savior that they should "love [agape] their enemies." All the "famous in the congregation, men of renown," one and all tell and encourage the people of God's church, to quote Adrian Rogers, 'If you are not willing to fight for your country, you have denied the faith and are worse than an infidel. You are not following the word of God that tells you to 'obey the laws of the land.'
That is the depth of the spiritual understanding and love of the "famous in the congregation, men of renown." That is why the first three chapters of the book of "the Revelation of Jesus Christ," outlines the utter carnality, apathy and apostasy within the church of which we are told that "Christ...[ is] in the midst."
I will have to differ with you on this. The apostles, one and all, thought they were converted, and would never forsake their master. But in reality they were not yet even 'out of Babylon.' The elect "come out of her." They come from nowhere else. I wrote an e-mail on the steps Israel took "for our admonition." It is entitled 'The Seven Steps To Salvation." No one is saved yet. Salvation is a process. The Greek is in the 'aorist tense,' and it is present progressive. All we have are those who are 'being saved,' and those who are 'perishing.' That is why Christ emphasizes to the seven churches that it is only those "who endure to the end [who] shall be saved."
These Truths are not popular. If they were they would not be truth.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they [those who bear His name] call them of his household?
John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Are you being persecuted? Who do you think is being spoken of here as doing the persecuting? It is none other than "that great city wherein our Lord was crucified. It is His own people! It is the "Many called but not chosen!"
I don't mean to ruin your day, but it is just becoming clearer to me that spiritual blessings are nothing less than physical trials of greater or lesser proportions.
2Co 12:5 ... I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
In closing I will just point out that being "clean" is a far cry from conversion, and conversion is a long way from maturity. It is not until we are converted that we are willing to go to the cross with Christ. The called, like Peter, are always willing die for Christ, to take up the sword to keep from doing that which Christ requires. Christ requires that we "die with Him" not for Him.
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.["clean" but unconverted]
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
I'm sorry for the delay in my reply.
Wow! I don't know what to say. Something within me tells me that you must be right about this. It's frightening, though. I'm not exactly sure what it means for me, personally, except that if I am to go on it means a lot more suffering, and much more intensely, than I've ever known. I know that, in my flesh, I cannot do it; but perhaps God is revealing these things to me, at last, because He intends to do something with me.
Okay, so please, if you could, provide me a list of your essays specifically concerning the way of life; for surely THIS, not whether or not hell is as the traditionalists say it is, or whether or not there is a Trinity, must truly be the supreme issue for all men. In the mean time, I'll get started pronto on reading "Strong Delusion."
Thanks so much for taking time to reply to me, and with such depth, no less.
Hi again I____,
I am so gratified that you got so much out of our exchange. You are so right; the doctrine of Universal Salvation is truly 'milk' compared to walking the Christian walk.
I suppose that the best way to answer your question would be to ask you to read 'The Law of Moses Versus The Law Of The Spirit.' God's law is truly His Character. And I quote this scripture at every opportunity:
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Mike